citadel, p3, vmc, vgc. . . .?
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Thread: citadel, p3, vmc, vgc. . . .?

  1. #1

    Default citadel, p3, vmc, vgc. . . .?

    hey guys (and girls),

    as you might have guessed from the title i\'ve got a little question on the different paint companys. at the moment i use citadel paints only and im looking to extend my paint range a little.

    I have tried using VGC before but wasnt overly impressed with them. i found that when you add water to them, its like the colour gets lighter and then when it dries it becomes darker again (confusing me a little). are VMC\'s the same in this aspect? does the paint rub off easily.

    ive been looking at p3 paints over the last few days and have read some pretty good reviews on them and wondered if anybody here uses them?

    what im really looking for is someone to review the differences between them and which they prefer for what i.e. skin tones, metallics and so forth. (citadels i know a fair bit about, so no explanation there is needed)

    all comments, criticisms and reviews are welcome.

    thanks in advance for any replys.

    chris

  2. #2

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    I picked up my first few bottles of VMC a week or two ago and I\'m loving it. It dries incredibley matte. It feels a bit different than VGC, I think it might be the fact it has less binder in it, which could pose a problem if you game with your minis. I have never noticed the problem you mention with VGC, and I\'ve been using it for years. It is my primary paint.

    I also use P3 paints at times. They seem to be pretty thick, very similar to the new GW base coat paints. Overall, I do like them, they just need some thinning.

    I also have a few shades of Reaper paint, which I don\'t really like. It seems like it has a low concentration of pigment.

    Really, my main recommendation is try a few colors you like from each line. I use (and mix together) various paints from various manufacturers all the time, making it impossible to name one as \"the best,\" even \"the best for a specific job\". I will say VMG is definately worth a try, I\'d love to try their flesh tones, as right now I\'m using game color for skin. I like Citadel metallics, the VGC seems to have a coarser pigment grind.

    Anyways, I\'d love to go on, but I gotta head to work. Hope this helped!

  3. #3

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    thanks for the quick reply. im not a gamer at all these days, so rubbing of paint isnt a big problem. ill probably test the p3\'s and VMC\'s as thats wat a lot seem to use. cheers :)

  4. #4

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    Buy them all.

    You can never have enough paint to choose from! :D

  5. #5

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    I also have a few shades of Reaper paint, which I don\'t really like. It seems like it has a low concentration of pigment.
    That\'s the first time that I\'ve heard someone claim that the reaper paints are lowly pigmented.

    The Reaper Master Series Paints are highly pigmented. The paints thin and flow well and cover reasonably well. The paints are geared towards layering styles of painting.

    I\'ve been very happy with them. The skintones, the liners, and the browns are particularly good colors. Quite a few of the competition level painters use Reaper MSPs. The MSPs require a little bit of shaking (5-10 seconds), but nowhere near as much as the Vallejos.

    All of that said, many people mix and match the lines. Trying a bit of each line is a really good idea.

  6. #6

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    I also started out with the Citadel paints and have recently changed to VMC and can\'t believe the difference in the finish and the smooth mattness of the VMC. No brushstrokes achieved with much less work. Blends beautifully, easy to use.
    The one downfall is that it is a much softer paint than Citadel and therefore more care is needed when handling the mini....although I often offset this with a quick, light spray of Dullcote for added protection. Small price to pay for such beautifully pigmented paints.

    Some of the VGC I really don\'t like such as the greens that seem to be almost transparent to me. Not as much pigment and more binder in VGC. Has more of a plastic-like feel on the brush to me than Model Colour.

    Personally I find P3 nice paints as far as pigment goes but a little harder to use and blend than VMC.

    I find that all the major miniature paint lines have their pros and cons and get around this when possible by using many different brands, depending on my needs.
    Buy a couple of your favourite brands and try them out on a few miniatures before investing in the whole set.

    As with most things people have their favourites and what is good for me and easy to use may not be suitable for the next person.....and so on.

  7. #7
    Consummate Brushlicker Jericho's Avatar
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    I too recommend mixing and matching whatever you like from different ranges.

    I have all the Citadel paints (all the old ones, all the current ones (minus 2-3 empties) and about 30 mixing pots for army painting) and more recently I bought all the P3 paints (except the inks, I have plenty of inks that I rarely use). There\'s a handful of Vallejo paints in there, but overall I haven\'t been impressed enough to try any more. Sorry about all the parentheses :D

    Anyway the P3 are some of my favorites for style (mostly muted, realistic colors with a few necessary bright tones), and the pigmentation is better than most. Generally they are easy to use and they really suit my style of layering/feathering hilights well. I don\'t do true wetblending so I can\'t comment on that technique.

    Right now P3 is my favorite overall paint range, but then I haven\'t tried the Reaper Masters Series. There\'s a few colors there that I simply must try. The sea green/turquoise colors look fantastic, and they have more types of flesh tone than anyone will ever need.

  8. #8

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    shrugs shoulders. I cannot use any other paints ATM, due to my restriction on what i am allowed to buy off the internet, so its GW paints agogo, but there isnt much wrong with them from my point of view, I mean look at what the heavy metal team do with them! just my 2 cents.

    rosac

  9. #9

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    In my opinion, any paint range can work for anyone, just as long as you know what characteristics you are dealing with. For example, I love using the foundation paints, and get just as smooth finish as any other paints, just have to do some more thinning than others. Also GW seems to work best with layered or feathering type blends.

    Mainly I use GW, but have been investing in some of the P3 paints. I have a full set of VGC and VMC, but I cant stand the eyedropper bottles, so they remain unused (No matter how much shaking I do, some of the unmixed clear thinner remains in the top and ruins the paint that comes out. Find myself wasting a lot more paint than with flip tops).

    -Matt

  10. #10
    Consummate Brushlicker Jericho's Avatar
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    Down with eyedropper bottles :D I agree, and I almost forgot about the clear crap that comes out first. I hate that!

    I\'m kind of jealous of your sheer volume of paint though. I thought I had one of the crazier collections out there, totalling 200+ pots quite easily :P

  11. #11

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    (No matter how much shaking I do, some of the unmixed clear thinner remains in the top and ruins the paint that comes out. Find myself wasting a lot more paint than with flip tops).
    I had this problem, but it is easily solved, just store the paints upside down, works a treat.

    One thing to bear in mind is that paints can vary from batch to batch even within the same paint manufacturer.

    Also the different paints lend themselves to different techniques, so its a good idea to try a few different brands and see what works for you.

    I have used citadel, VMC and P3. I don\'t really like the VMCs, but they do have a bunch of colours I like, so will still use a few of them. I\'m used to citadel and so they are still my preferred paints. The P3s I like, they seem similar to the old citadels, given they cost the same as GW, but have more paint and better bottles I will probably replace a lot of my citadel with these. Finally the foundations are great.

  12. #12

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    I\'m gonna have to say another big-up to the P3 system. They really are lovely to work with. However, I\'m not such a great fan of their metallics, and will use GW in preference. I have a few of the basic Reaper paints, and found them generally ok. Their Linen White is an excellent colour for high-lighting. I can\'t really comment on Vallejo lines, because I only own two.

    Mix \'n\' match- it is the way to go! :)

  13. #13

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    Originally posted by mattsterbenz
    Mainly I use GW, but have been investing in some of the P3 paints. I have a full set of VGC and VMC, but I cant stand the eyedropper bottles, so they remain unused (No matter how much shaking I do, some of the unmixed clear thinner remains in the top and ruins the paint that comes out. Find myself wasting a lot more paint than with flip tops).
    It\'s not a problem with the dropper bottles, it\'s an issue of the paint separating during storage. The Reaper MSPs don\'t have this problem. If you add an agitator (a bit of metal sprue will due) and/or use a paint shaker, you won\'t have a separation problem.

  14. #14

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    Originally posted by Spacemunkie
    Buy them all.

    You can never have enough paint to choose from! :D
    agreed!, i am a greedy bugger!

  15. #15

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    Hi everybody,

    I\'m using lots of VGC and some VMC and experience the problems with the bottles only occasionally with certain colors. Overall I like them a lot. I also use quite a lot of GW colors mainly because my son uses them for his WH40K armies. You have to work a little bit differently, but for most purposes they work very well, too.

    For some shades of brown and very saturated primary colours I visit my local art store and buy some Schmincke artist colors (acrylic). They seem expensive at first, but since you buy a tube of thick paste, that you have to thin a lot, they last a long time. I\'m still working with my first tubes of umbra, burnt umbra asf. They work great for worn leather and things like that. Only problem is that they sometimes tend to get a little glossy so you have to use some matte medium or coat them afterwards. They offer two lines, simply buy the more expensive one, because you will never be able to empty the larger, cheaper ones if you don\'t paint pictures on the side and the more expensive line is much more lightfast.

    Sometimes the dealers have some small test samples to hand out, which still contain quite a lot of paint for our purposes.

    And, of course, you can never have enough paints. Or minis. Or bits. or...

  16. #16

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    Well I have lots of paint (two paintier 80s full and a ton on the desk) Here is my nutshell review:

    GW - Good, basic paints, though some colors have pigmentation and viscosity issues.
    GW Foundation: Fantastic basecoating paints, though it dries really fast and there are some separation issues on the pallette, though that is from the enormous amount of pigment in them.
    p3: I love these. They thin great as the pigment is generally not a power but a liquid or gel, though there is also an issue with separation on the pallette particularly in the metallics. Again this may be due to high pigmentation. The metallics also need to be stirred with something to get it even throughout.
    VMC: Great all around paints. Superbly matte finish with smooth viscosity.
    RMS: Just bought a ton of these, and I have to say I am loving them. Great pigmentation and coverage, good viscosity and blend well.

  17. #17

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    The replies have really helped, thanks a bunch. As it goes, i have bought a whole bunch of P3 paints and i love them :):) the strength of the pigment is great and it suits my painting style pretty well, ive found the paints are excellent for washes, feathering and arent too bad when it comes to wet blending too. i\'ll probably take on what many of you have said, and try as many makes as possible.

    thanks again
    chris :)

  18. #18

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    Originally posted by DaRat
    Originally posted by mattsterbenz
    Mainly I use GW, but have been investing in some of the P3 paints. I have a full set of VGC and VMC, but I cant stand the eyedropper bottles, so they remain unused (No matter how much shaking I do, some of the unmixed clear thinner remains in the top and ruins the paint that comes out. Find myself wasting a lot more paint than with flip tops).
    It\'s not a problem with the dropper bottles, it\'s an issue of the paint separating during storage. The Reaper MSPs don\'t have this problem. If you add an agitator (a bit of metal sprue will due) and/or use a paint shaker, you won\'t have a separation problem.
    Problem is, I put a small piece of pewter sprue in each of them. Still have that issue. Also I find that I waste less paint with the flip-tops, because for tiny details I can easily open the flip top quickly, and grab just the amount of paint I need. The dropper bottle always puts out more than needed. Plus the text on the labels rubs off over time. I had to put a piece of clear tape over each label once I found that out. lol

    If vallejo had flip tops, I would use a few of them. Or better yet, if I had a couple hundred GW mixing pots I would just dump all my vallejo in them, but I don\'t want to pay $1 per mixing pot. :)

    -Matt

  19. #19

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    Originally posted by monkeyman7x
    The replies have really helped, thanks a bunch. As it goes, i have bought a whole bunch of P3 paints and i love them :):) the strength of the pigment is great and it suits my painting style pretty well, ive found the paints are excellent for washes, feathering and arent too bad when it comes to wet blending too. i\'ll probably take on what many of you have said, and try as many makes as possible.

    thanks again
    chris :)
    Glad you like them. They are a very nice range of paint. There are a few colors you might want to pick up to compliment them, such as the GW metallics at least (haven\'t found any range that makes them nearly as good). Most of the p3 paints are real grungy/natural tones, so another range with a bright selection to choose from could make a nice compliment to your set. Might want to pick up some dark greens especially, dont think there are any of those in the p3 range.

    -Matt

  20. #20

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    Originally posted by Jericho
    Down with eyedropper bottles :D I agree, and I almost forgot about the clear crap that comes out first. I hate that!

    I\'m kind of jealous of your sheer volume of paint though. I thought I had one of the crazier collections out there, totalling 200+ pots quite easily :P
    Sorry for the third reply in a row! lol

    Yeah I have quite a collection. My local game store actually gave me their old paint rack (empty) that they were going to throw away, and now all my vallejo and extra GW are on that. All of my others (full set of GW, all my mixed colors, and my p3 paints) are in a large toolbox that I carry around to other stores when I run painting classes.

    -Matt

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