dipping debate

[Wolf Fang]

at the local hobby shop the other day we some how got on the subject of dipping and how your not supposed to vote for them at the tournies there as it is cheating (to wich i agreed) on the way back home sitting on the bus however i figured hmmm this would make a good little debate on CMON (as you guys are rather responcible and i feel can handle this without getting carried away and going at each others throats resulting in this thread needing to be closed) so here it is... dipping is it cheating or not? (for uses where the model will be voted upon not just for gaming)

since i started the thread i may as well field my voice. as you probaly have guessed i dont care if the mini is dipped for gaming purposes but i feel it is cheating if its being used in a painting competition or being judged for best painted army at a gaming tournie

[mud duck]

I think that I\'m with you on this one. Gaming ok, but shouldn\'t win for painting.

[Ritual]

How can it possibly be cheating? ??? It\'s a method to put paint on to a mini! Just like painting with a brush is.

If a mini or army should win some painting award and is dipped one would assume that the other candidates are of a lower quality and, thus, do not deserve to win.

[Gilvan Blight]

I see no problem with it. What\'s it matter what was done to make a mini look great, as long as it looks great.

If someone develops a method of using a pc to paint their minis for them, maybe that I would consider cheating, but using whatever tools are avaliable, in the case wood stain, is all part of the game.

[freakinacage]

Originally posted by Ritual
How can it possibly be cheating? ??? It\'s a method to put paint on to a mini! Just like painting with a brush is.

If a mini or army should win some painting award and is dipped one would assume that the other candidates are of a lower quality and, thus, do not deserve to win.

oh anders, why must i always agree with your points?!!

what he said!

[odinsgrandson]

Dipping is Absolutely Not cheating. There is no reason that any technique should be considered cheating when talking about painting competitions (except where the painter is not the entrant in the competition).


I don\'t know how people could possibly think that dipping is cheating. If this is a competition, then the mini that is painted the best should win, regardless of the methods used to paint it. I don\'t see any reason to justify disqualifying a better-looking mini on the basis that it was speed-painted.



I agree that the dipped army shouldn\'t win for painting- BUT only because there ought to be a better painted force that wasn\'t dipped. Dipping can\'t get you a golden demon because someone is going to enter a really nicely painted mini (that isn\'t dipped).


So... if you don\'t want the dipped army to win best painted, don\'t disqualify them. Just step it up and paint your force better.

[airhead]

Dipping is not ok? Then get a really big brush and give the mini a wash.
Same diff.

[mattrock]

yeah...I think I agree with most...dipping isn\'t something that I\'d consider cheating any more than drybrushing.

that said...if a dipped mini/army wins in its category I can only assume that there weren\'t very man entrants or that the overall quality of entries must have been terrible.

I don\'t think I\'ve ever seen a dipped mini that made me go :wow:. that said, if you know of some, please link them \'cause I\'d like to take a look.

[lizcam]

Originally posted by Ritual
How can it possibly be cheating? ??? It\'s a method to put paint on to a mini! Just like painting with a brush is.

If a mini or army should win some painting award and is dipped one would assume that the other candidates are of a lower quality and, thus, do not deserve to win.

What he said.

[Dragon Forge Design]

In my opinion its no different than say.. drybrushing.. or layer painting..its a technique..

On the other hand its gonna look like shite next to a well painted army and wont win..so why get your undies in a bundel over it...

[supervike]

I\'m liking some of the results I\'ve seen from dipping (i haven\'t tried it yet)....

But, I\'m all for it. If it makes quick easy well done looking minis, why not?

For instance, check out this site:

http://www.dysartes.com/model/painting/Dipping1.php

[Shadzar]

i think some people here may be missing the point.

if you went into a pie baking contest with a store bought pie then you may have a chance at winning while others that made their own may not be as good.

the point is the work done that some may see it as cheating. while some put all their efforts into painting all the details and such even this dipping technique seems like a short cut and may diminish the work of the other entrants.

for example a novice painting comp where all but one person paints their minis and one jsut sprays it, colors the eyes, and dips the minis they have reduced the work greatly for the results.

and don\'t even get directed results, but random ones. while others tried to apply the paint and their details by hand rather than letting gravity do the work for them like the store bought pie.

it would depend on the rules of the competition as to whether dipping is cheating or not. in a sense it is as it takes a shortcut that others may not wish to take or may circumvent the spirit of the contest.

[supervike]

No, sorry Shadzar, I do see your point but the analogy doesn\'t hold.

It\'s not as though the painter just buys the miniature already done.

It\'s more akin to buying a ready made crust, to keep with your analogy, but still puts everything together and presents it.

It\'s a shortcut, and it\'s never going to taste as good as really good homemade pie.

If one person uses store bought crust, but the 2nd makes a awful homemade crust, should the 2nd win because it took more effort?

But yeah, if the rules are there, then its a whole different animal....or pie..

[Ritual]

Dipping is a crude method and you won\'t ever get great results from it. As you say, Shadzar, the results have a great deal of randomness to it. If you can\'t paint a better looking mini with more accurate and controlled means, like using a brush, then, of course, you should not win!

I can\'t see the analogy with pre-made pies here either. Dipping is a technique which you use to put colour on the mini. It\'s not like someone else does it for you.

[Primeval]

Amount of work does not equal quality of work.

[Godlikebuthumble]

Dipped mini =/= store bought pie.
If this held true, then the only way one would not cheat would be to buy (or better, gather) some pigments, make one\'s own oil paints and apply them with self-made brushes. Every single thing or technique we use in model painting is just a tool and has its use.
Even the randomness of dipping, comparable to generous washes, has its use and limitations: looks best on organic and random surfaces then on high-tech ones. So it\'s entirely legit.
For example, there is a piece in the articles section for quick and easy force weapons. Go and look at it. I\'ll wait.

So? Is it random? Is it quick? Is it \"beginner\"? One thing it isn\'t, though. Cheating.
Thus, if one\'s \"by the book\"-techiques don\'t yield results as \"impressive\" as dipping :rolleyes: ... You just might need more practice.

Sorry for ranting.

[Dragon Forge Design]

Originally posted by Shadzar
i think some people here may be missing the point.

if you went into a pie baking contest with a store bought pie then you may have a chance at winning while others that made their own may not be as good.

the point is the work done that some may see it as cheating. while some put all their efforts into painting all the details and such even this dipping technique seems like a short cut and may diminish the work of the other entrants.

for example a novice painting comp where all but one person paints their minis and one jsut sprays it, colors the eyes, and dips the minis they have reduced the work greatly for the results.

and don\'t even get directed results, but random ones. while others tried to apply the paint and their details by hand rather than letting gravity do the work for them like the store bought pie.

it would depend on the rules of the competition as to whether dipping is cheating or not. in a sense it is as it takes a shortcut that others may not wish to take or may circumvent the spirit of the contest.

Complete..load..of Bull Kocky...

Paint is paint.. techniques is techniques.. end results win competitions.

Having won my fair share..trust me I have some very simple techniques that with your principles..I should never been allowed to win. Utter crap..

Again what this really comes down to and as like most bitch and moan threads..somewhere some one lost to what they felt was an inferior paint job and oh the horror in this case it may of been...a dipped figure.. Id truely like to know the whole story.

[Shadzar]

Originally posted by supervike
No, sorry Shadzar, I do see your point but the analogy doesn\'t hold.

It\'s not as though the painter just buys the miniature already done.

It\'s more akin to buying a ready made crust, to keep with your analogy, but still puts everything together and presents it.

It\'s a shortcut, and it\'s never going to taste as good as really good homemade pie.

If one person uses store bought crust, but the 2nd makes a awful homemade crust, should the 2nd win because it took more effort?

But yeah, if the rules are there, then its a whole different animal....or pie..

yeah crust does work better. and it depends again on the rules. if the 2nd place followed the rules and made it all and the better pie was found out to be not following the rules, then the 2nd would win by default.

thus why i included the rules. and i would much prefer to see the effort go into painting rather than just stain.

as for those that disagree about dipping as a technique, i did say it was one. but it isnt painting. as many of you have said a dipped mini wouldn\'t win a GD. the reason it just doesnt look that good. so it would depend agian on the rules of tha painting contest.

as i understand the OP, this hobby shop considered dipping as going against the rules. so that is all that matters.

[supervike]

Originally posted by Shadzar
[as i understand the OP, this hobby shop considered dipping as going against the rules. so that is all that matters.

Yup...their contest, their rules!

[QuietiManes]

Well, I voted no cheating. Assuming there was no rule against it.

This whole thread just confuses me. Please, someone tell me one good reason why dipping could even be remotely considered anywhere close to cheating. Other than the store doing the competition said so. And for the rare person who thinks it is cheating, please give a reason, because, well, you confuse me. If dipping is cheating, so is using an airbrush, using pigment liner markers to blackline or dot an iris or according to Shadzars example of effort involved, so is using a larger brush, using fewer layers to apply colours, using a spray can to varnish and/or prime instead of using a 20/0 brush, because they all reduce the work you have to do...again...I\'m confused by that logic and don\'t see how more effort negates cheating. I know there were a couple papers in high school and university I put alot more effort into that I downloaded off the \'net, so it was cheating, no way around it, but took me alot longer to do.

Dipping could win a contest, I\'d be surprised if it hasn\'t won many already. It\'s not a new technique and it doesn\'t have to be done with super dark and super thick varnish or polyurethane for wood working. It\'s just usually done that way in the \"quick method\" tutorials you find most of the time more recently. It\'s just like most of the metallic paints used most of the time, looks like crapola compared to highly skilled NMM, but highly skilled metallic paints look amazing too when they\'re done with a similar level of skilled application buuuuuut, everyone thinks metallics are crapola because of what they usually see. Think about it.