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Thread: Hoo-freakin-ray.........common sense prevails

  1. #21

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    Originally posted by paintingploddy
    Picks jaw up from the floor.

    This thread is no fun, Evil Dave hasn\'t said anything I disagree with yet
    You\'d be surprised. I\'m a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment, because I believe that every animal on this planet has a natural right to defend itself by any means necessary.
    However, I also believe the 2nd Amendment is as much a responsibility as it is a right, and shooting two fleeing men in the back is in no way, shape or form a form of defense, nor responsible gun use.

    My philosophy is pretty simple. If my neighbor owns a bazooka and is infringing upon no one else\'s rights, what business is it of mine? Should I want to own a tank, merely to tool around on my land, and I\'m hurting no one, what business is it of yours? Owning a weapon and using a weapon to commit criminal acts are two very different things.

  2. #22

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    I wish our NRA had half the backbone of yours.

    American NRA: Which part of \"shall not be infringed\" do you not understand?
    British NRA: We will do everything in our power to comply with the governments wishes.

  3. #23

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    Don\'t leave it all out Dave...

    \"Captain Corbett said that a plainclothes officer had pulled up just in time to see Mr. Horn pointing his shotgun at both men across his front yard, that Mr. Ortiz had at one point started to run in a way that took him closer to Mr. Horn, and that both men “received gunfire from the rear.”

    Source, New York times.

    Who cares if he didn\'t \'know\' the neighbor. He went out to stop what he knew was wrong. He couldn\'t wait for the police, because he didn\'t want them to get away.

    They did not stop at his demands, and according to testimony came at him on HIS property. Maybe they tried to call his bluff, only to find out he wasn\'t bluffing.

    All this guy did was live his life, pay his taxes and retire in peace. Maybe he was sick to death of watching his neighborhood turn into a shithole because neighbors don\'t want to \'get involved\' and help each other out.

    Would you do the same? Someone is robbing someone you don\'t know, and you\'d just go away? That\'s not the Evil Dave I know. I don\'t know you personally, but I think I know you enough to say that your sense of justice would never allow that.

    I understand your point about not being a good precedent. It\'s not. It\'s not a cause people should have to take. It\'s an ugly situation from the get go. But Joe Horn is not a murderer, he didn\'t ask for those scumbags to do what they did. I wish they didn\'t die, but by the same token they should have never been there. They got exactly what was coming to them.

    Maybe its a good precedence to set for theives. Stop stealing, stop intimidating, stop ruining lives of innocent people.

    I\'m not saying Joe Horn is a hero. But, he aint the bad guy here either.




  4. #24

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    Originally posted by supervike
    Don\'t leave it all out Dave...

    \"Captain Corbett said that a plainclothes officer had pulled up just in time to see Mr. Horn pointing his shotgun at both men across his front yard, that Mr. Ortiz had at one point started to run in a way that took him closer to Mr. Horn, and that both men “received gunfire from the rear.”

    Source, New York times.

    Who cares if he didn\'t \'know\' the neighbor. He went out to stop what he knew was wrong. He couldn\'t wait for the police, because he didn\'t want them to get away.

    They did not stop at his demands, and according to testimony came at him on HIS property. Maybe they tried to call his bluff, only to find out he wasn\'t bluffing.

    All this guy did was live his life, pay his taxes and retire in peace. Maybe he was sick to death of watching his neighborhood turn into a shithole because neighbors don\'t want to \'get involved\' and help each other out.

    Would you do the same? Someone is robbing someone you don\'t know, and you\'d just go away? That\'s not the Evil Dave I know. I don\'t know you personally, but I think I know you enough to say that your sense of justice would never allow that.

    I understand your point about not being a good precedent. It\'s not. It\'s not a cause people should have to take. It\'s an ugly situation from the get go. But Joe Horn is not a murderer, he didn\'t ask for those scumbags to do what they did. I wish they didn\'t die, but by the same token they should have never been there. They got exactly what was coming to them.

    Maybe its a good precedence to set for theives. Stop stealing, stop intimidating, stop ruining lives of innocent people.

    I\'m not saying Joe Horn is a hero. But, he aint the bad guy here either.


    I understand what you\'re saying, but here\'s the rub. In Southern towns, especially small towns, it\'s all in who you know. I could shoot a robber in cold blood and the cops here would look the other way because I\'m a local with a prominent family name. I also grew up with most of the cops down here and could have a \"witness\" very easily.
    It\'s also suspect that the information about the plain clothes cop didn\'t come out until about two weeks after the shooting, when that X guy started the racism crap, and that by all reports the uniformed officers were the first to confront Mr. Horn.

    One man ran closer to him, but they where both shot in the back and it does not account for the time between the second and third shot. You usually only shoot someone once, unless you intend to kill.
    At the range they say, with a 12 gauge, you cannot miss. It takes me less than 5 seconds total to unload a pump action 12 gauge, at that range there is no need to aim. Why then the six to seven second delay? As an avid hunter in my youth, that strikes me as the shot to put the animal out of it\'s misery when you wing it.

    Where it my neighbor, I would stop them, however, my neighbor is my mother. The me and mine scenario.
    Would I shoot them while fleeing? No way.
    Would I chase them down with my gun? Absolutely, but I would not fire unless one of them produced a weapon.

  5. #25

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    I read the transcript of the 911 call (or excerpts perhaps) and it left me a little queasy.

    Whether the end result was protection of his life or his neighbor\'s \"castle\", this guy seems like he really wanted to shoot someone.

  6. #26
    Coffin Dodger / Keymaster airhead's Avatar
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    ED, you know how easy it is to miss a quail or a turkey or a dove with a 12 ga?
    There is no range where you don\'t have to aim.

    I don\'t like the fact that they were shot in the back either. Something smells of rat. Am I going to lose any sleep over 2 less theiving crack heads? The local cops probobably are not either. Like you said, it is who you know and they were probably known.

    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    You usually only shoot someone once, unless you intend to kill.
    I was trained to put 2 in the center mass (chest) to stop someone. Generally, that will kill them, but it will stop nearly every person I\'ve seen. If it does not stop them and they continue coming at you, repeat as necessary. But like you said - to stop someone from coming at you - not someone running away.

  7. #27

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    Originally posted by airhead
    ED, you know how easy it is to miss a quail or a turkey or a dove with a 12 ga?
    There is no range where you don\'t have to aim.
    A quail or a Turkey is a heck of a lot smaller than a human and you rarely get less than 20 feet away. The reports I read, he was less than 15 feet away. At less than 15 feet I can hip shoot with a rifle, much less a 12 gauge and hit a human target.

    Like I said, I\'m not going to cry over two criminals, but Mr. Horn is being regaled as a hero in many quarters, and I see his actions as suspect, if not downright irresponsible.
    If not charge him, then they do need to change the law to stop yahoo vigilantes from killing some kid who is sneaking out of his window to hook up with his friends.

  8. #28

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    [quote]Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Like I said, I\'m not going to cry over two criminals, but Mr. Horn is being regaled as a hero in many quarters, and I see his actions as suspect, if not downright irresponsible.
    Yeah, I agree, I don\'t want to see him as a hero at all either. Maybe as a shining example of the dangers AND responsibility of owning a gun.

    But, I see too much of my father, and quite frankly, myself in him. I\'ve found myself in situations where anger and fear can cloud judgement. That is what I believe. Mr. Horn went out there with good intentions, but sometimes bad things happen. I don\'t think he was actively patrolling, looking for someone to kill.


    Mr. Horn may have been full of bravado on the 911 call, but wouldn\'t you have to be? Wouldn\'t you have to be bold if you are going to confront possibly dangerous men?

    It\'s a lose/lose situation all around, but had they convicted the guy it would have been a lose/travisty....

    It\'s not often I find myself further to the right that you Evil Dave....and even more rare to find you pulling me back towards the center.:D

  9. #29

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    Originally posted by supervike
    But, I see too much of my father, and quite frankly, myself in him. I\'ve found myself in situations where anger and fear can cloud judgement. That is what I believe. Mr. Horn went out there with good intentions, but sometimes bad things happen.
    This is why I preach safety and training, knowing yourself and what you can handle and above all self-control.
    Maybe it\'s military training, maybe it\'s just an inborn ability, but in the times I\'ve had to pull my gun in order to control situations, I\'ve been in complete control, almost a cold logical control. The anger hits me later. But then again, I\'m one of those guys that when I\'m yelling or visibly angry, I\'m venting. When I\'m quite and cold is when I\'m truly pissed.

    Mr. Horn may have been full of bravado on the 911 call, but wouldn\'t you have to be? Wouldn\'t you have to be bold if you are going to confront possibly dangerous men?
    I would\'ve agreed with you until he started talking about the laws and the dates they changed to the 911 dispatcher. That seems a bit suspicious. As if he had studied up waiting eagerly for something like this to happen.
    I mean, most of us here know to a degree the laws of our states pertaining to home defense, but the dates? It sounded a lot like preemptive justification to me.
    Generally speaking, you do not justify your actions before you do them unless you are planning to actually do what you say.

  10. #30

  11. #31

    Default The Adie solution......U.K. residents only !

    Our gun laws over here (U.K.) are tougher, but the body count for teenage stabbings in the last 12 months has been horrific.
    As a military trained resposible adult with a martial arts knowledge I really feel I should be allowed to defend myself with a suitable dettterent .A knife weilding youth ,high on drink or drugs would only be stopped by only one thing in my opinion ........... A Lightning Claw ! ;)

    GOD bless ........VINCENTI.

    P.S. .......somethings gotta kill ya ! :flip:

  12. #32

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    listening to that 911 call i would say prosecute, it\'s one thing defending yourself or someone else, but running outside despite someone else telling you not to and killing them is going too far. if he just injured them, fair game but to kill them when they are only stealing property (i don\'t mean only but it\'s not like they were attacking his neighbour), killing is going a little too far.

    i won\'t be weeping about the loss of any crims but, as has been mentioned, he was basically a guy who sounded like they wanted to shoot someone, firing in the street!

  13. #33

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    Originally posted by freakinacage

    i won\'t be weeping about the loss of any crims but, as has been mentioned, he was basically a guy who sounded like they wanted to shoot someone, firing in the street!
    I\'m sorry but I\'ve seen this comment thrown around several time and I need to comment on it.

    First of all. I know people who have commited crime in their youth. I don\'t want to see them dead, and if they died back then I would have wept. For the people I still know do crime I don\'t know anyone especially good, but would still feel sad if they pass, as I know their history, know their friends etc. Criminal people aren\'t a different kind of people that some of you paint them up to be. In most cases there is a cause for their criminality whether it is parents lack of support or drug addiction. Some kids do crime searching for their identity together with others. Others do it as a part of a political thing. I know some that have stealed from major companies as they are anti-capitalists etc. I don\'t condone their doings and I have spoken against it, but they are just people like everybody else.

    This thing that you won\'t weep or miss a killed criminal is the age old left over from religion seperating people into those guided by God and those following the path of the devil. Nowadays it just the sharp separation of \"good\" and \"bad\" people. It just has nothing to do with reality. If you deliberately kill someone in your home cause they were trying to steal your TV then according to me you are no better then someone killing out on the street because you are in \"their\" neighborhood. It\'s maaah TV, it\'s maah car blabla Sit down, shut up and buy a bloody insurance. You don\'t know their past you don\'t know why they are doing this and you can\'t be seing the concequence of your actions if you are prepared to kill someone over material things (break a few bones at the most ;)). If someone tries to attack you and your family... another matter entirely! But of course non-lethal violence is to be prefered.

    Sure there are people I would not weep if they were dead.. but I would generalise that to all criminals I would be wrong, lack empathy and buy pictures of reality fed to me by TV and cheap crime stories. I don\'t think anyone really buys that here, or? We\'re all both good and evil and sometimes we don\'t make so good decisions Under the wrong circumstances it would be you or someone you know facing the barrel of a shotgun. Never forget that.

  14. #34

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    Originally posted by Avelorn
    If you deliberately kill someone in your home cause they were trying to steal your TV then according to me you are no better then someone killing out on the street because you are in \"their\" neighborhood. It\'s maaah TV, it\'s maah car blabla Sit down, shut up and buy a bloody insurance. You don\'t know their past you don\'t know why they are doing this and you can\'t be seing the concequence of your actions if you are prepared to kill someone over material things (break a few bones at the most ;)). If someone tries to attack you and your family... another matter entirely! But of course non-lethal violence is to be prefered.

    Sure there are people I would not weep if they were dead.. but I would generalise that to all criminals I would be wrong, lack empathy and buy pictures of reality fed to me by TV and cheap crime stories. I don\'t think anyone really buys that here, or? We\'re all both good and evil and sometimes we don\'t make so good decisions Under the wrong circumstances it would be you or someone you know facing the barrel of a shotgun. Never forget that.
    oh i agree totally, unless i know them personally though i have no choice but to generalise. i know some crims and tbh, they are all \'bad eggs\' to a man. i agree that sometimes social circumstances push someone in a direction but i know people with plenty of money who are violent theiving bastards

  15. #35

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    Originally posted by freakinacage
    oh i agree totally, unless i know them personally though i have no choice but to generalise. i know some crims and tbh, they are all \'bad eggs\' to a man. i agree that sometimes social circumstances push someone in a direction but i know people with plenty of money who are violent theiving bastards
    Yeah I know some of those.. but in my case I rather \"know of\" meaning I still don\'t know them personally enough to make a judgement. With social circumstances I mean how they were brought up as well not if they are poor or so.

    There are perhaps bad eggs, but generally you can spot them so early that I think the society lets them down. For me I could when I was in primary school point at the people that would be at risk, and yes some of them went on to criminality. One guy had to have had some combination of letters (call it what you want) and a mother who could not say no, another one just had a piss-poor upbringing. I don\'t take away the responsibility for their actions but I think it could have been otherwise as well with better support.

    Another thing is that some of the most \"violent\" people I know, that have scared me the most are not criminals in that respect.

  16. #36
    Coffin Dodger / Keymaster airhead's Avatar
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    Avelorn, the crack/meth problem over here is getting way out of hand. They are stealing anything they can get just to get more money for drugs:

    Copper wire from construction sites:
    We killed a couple on my last job that were trying to steal a copper wire out of an underground conduit - it was carrying 660v. Building construction is getting hit worst by this.

    Air conditioner units: businesses and residential - it does not matter, cut a couple of wires and haul it off. Let all the freon out - not their problem. New construction is again most vulnerable here, but they\'ll get it if you are out of your house for an hour.

    You name it, if they can carry it off and get it swapped for money, it is gone. And ebay is the thieves best friend.


  17. #37

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    @Avelorn,
    It\'s not really a matter of Nature vs. Nurture or Good vs. Evil.
    It\'s about choices and their consequences.
    If someone is in my home stealing my TV, I\'m not going to walk over to them and say, \"Excuse me, good fellow, I dare say, you seem to be stealing my personal belongings. Am I to assume you are in no way dangerous to me and mine?\"
    It\'s not exactly like they announce their intentions.
    I\'m going to assume they are a danger to me and mine and will put a bullet (or several) in them.
    They made the choice to come into my home uninvited and try and steal my belongings, they knew the dangers inherent in doing so.
    I see that as more an assisted suicide than a murder. I personally cannot feel sorry for someone who chose to do a really, really dumb, potentially life threatening thing and had to face the consequences.

    Now some may use this argument to defend Joe Horn, but the problem with that is this: Joe Horn was in his home, the criminals were not, they were leaving. Mr. Horn knew their intentions and voluntarily escalated the situation. He shot and killed two defenseless men who were no danger to him had he stayed in his home as requested by the 911 dispatcher, and in fact, since both were shot in the back, posed no threat to him even after he confronted them.
    The state of Texas may say this was a lawful shooting, in no way was it justice, or the right thing to do.

  18. #38

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    Sorry. I still disagree. I don\'t think they were defenseless men, and according to that police testimony, they CAME AT HIM.

    Anyhow, this is NOT just about property or possessions, it goes much deeper.

    If you leave your property out on the street, and someone takes it, then it is just about property.

    If someone breaks into your house in order to steal your property, it is far far more serious. Even if they are just after stuff, the victim is left not only feeling violated, but possibly not safe in their own home.

    There is a psychological factor that you guys are not seeing. What about the lost sleep, the creeping fear of just being in your home, the increased paranoia?

    I don\'t know all the facts about Horn, maybe this kind of crap had been going on for sometime in his neighborhood. Maybe he had resolved himself to stop it when he gets the chance. The 911 call is damning, I agree, but I think you need to understand his mindset. Again, he was jacked up on adreneline, bravado, and whatever else he may have been feeling.

    I don\'t think you can easily judge the victims of a crime. That helplessness they feel could turn to rage, hate, and other terrible emotions.

    Someone simply stealing a tv doesn\'t deserve to die, but what about someone who steals your psychological well being, sanity, and the safety of your own home or neighborhood? I\'m not saying they deserve to die, but I think it is far more serious to be dismissed so easily as a \'simple robbery\'.

    It\'s quite simple. Had the thieves not chosen to victimize someone, they\'d be alive now. They put themselves into this predicament.

  19. #39

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    Originally posted by supervike
    Sorry. I still disagree. I don\'t think they were defenseless men, and according to that police testimony, they CAME AT HIM.
    It\'s mighty hard to shoot someone coming at you in the back.
    They have to be past you, meaning they are not attacking you, to do that.
    It\'s even harder for a person to come at you when you stay in your home and avoid trying to play hero, especially if you are not trained to do so or are not in control of your emotions.
    Being a responsible Gun Owner (or adult, for that matter) is knowing when you are incapable of handling a situation due to your emotions.

  20. #40

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    [quote]Originally posted by Evil Dave
    It\'s mighty hard to shoot someone coming at you in the back.
    They have to be past you, meaning they are not attacking you, to do that.
    It\'s even harder for a person to come at you when you stay in your home and avoid trying to play hero, especially if you are not trained to do so or are not in control of your emotions.
    Being a responsible Gun Owner (or adult, for that matter) is knowing when you are incapable of handling a situation due to your emotions.
    I can only go by what the Plainsclothes policeman says...that the criminals were coming at him in a way that exposed their back....plus its conceivable to me that a person could turn away once they realized he really was going to shoot.


    But, you are 100% right on the other points. He shouldn\'t have gone, and I\'m sure he wishes he didn\'t. But, that is water under the bridge, so to speak. Hopefully, some good comes of it. Maybe the crime rate drops in his neighborhood.

    Besides, I\'m beginning to wonder if even though Horn is found innocent of these charges, if he could still be brought up on \'wrongful death\' charges and be sued in the civil court setting.

    It\'s a FUBAR situation from the get go.


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