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  1. #41

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    No its an idiotic solution/idea..

    They should be putting it up to the MINIMUM amount of exercise recommended for that age group a day, not considering getting rid of it..

  2. #42

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    PC rum amok -

    In one case, a ten-year-old boy was expelled from elementary school because he brought to school a 1” plastic toy pistol that was an accessory to his G.I. Joe action figure. The boy discovered he had the tiny toy in his pocket when he checked to see if he had his lunch money (Seattle Times, January 8, 1997). Skiba and Peterson (1999) documented numerous cases of excessive punishment, which they referred to as “the dark side of zero tolerance.” Among the examples they cited:


  3. #43

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    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Originally posted by AinuLainour
    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Originally posted by ScottRadom
    Smoking is bad for you Evil Dave. Please quit. Please?
    Living is bad for you. 100 out of 100 cases always end up in death.
    That isn\'t the point. You\'re just increasing your chances of ending your one shot at life exponentially by smoking, most people would care to do what they could to get the most out of their lives.
    That\'s because you make the common mistake of confusing Longevity with Living.

    And most people never get the most they can out of their lives no matter how long they live.
    Oh, no mistake was made. I am referring to the fact that a smoker is compromising their chances for the best life they could get.

    And most painters never make it over 9.0, that doesn\'t mean they should start drybrushing everything as most people can\'t get 9.0+ anyhow.

    Also, I don\'t want you to think I\'m trying to lecture you on smoking, but since it\'s a forum, there isn\'t really a problem with putting my opinions out there.

  4. #44

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    It seems to me that the problem isn´t that there are a lot more rules than there used to be. The more complex a society is the more complex the rules have to be.

    The first problem is that a FEW of the rules are stupid.

    The second that there are a good deal of stupid people administrating the otherwise most likely completely sensible and reasonable rules,

    And the third that PC (some places at least) have slowly crept up so far that it´s smothered common sense.

    All of these reasons have nothing to do with the amount of rules there are, but only what the rules say, how they are implemented, and who they are implemented by.

  5. #45

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    Originally posted by slah
    It seems to me that the problem isn´t that there are a lot more rules than there used to be. The more complex a society is the more complex the rules have to be.

    The first problem is that a FEW of the rules are stupid.

    The second that there are a good deal of stupid people administrating the otherwise most likely completely sensible and reasonable rules,

    And the third that PC (some places at least) have slowly crept up so far that it´s smothered common sense.

    All of these reasons have nothing to do with the amount of rules there are, but only what the rules say, how they are implemented, and who they are implemented by.
    that does make so much sense.......
    those that are aking the rules do so from a distance a lot of the time with no real experience of dealing with what the rule is applied to in person..
    There are then a large group of rule enforcers who are so scared of frivolous lawsuits that are thrown around for anything these days that they either totally err on the side of caution and common sense isn\'t applied .
    it\'s all a bit saddening and most definitely frustrating.

    @Scott I hope you don\'t ever have to deal with it chief it\'s the most frustrating thing I\'ve come across... I mean my little one ain\'t small by any means and he\'s a strong little git he just has a respect for the rules and is getting a hard time because of it ?? Make sense?

    Oh and yes the Phys Ed thing is by all accounts something that is going ahead..on one hand asking people to get more active and get their kids more active. on the other hand cutting out school phys ed...
    Apparently the solution to this is seen as more extra cirricular activities. (after school) which OK good idea in theory but in practise means parents having to constantly reshuffle schedules.. Teachers no doubt seeking more time off or pay for longer hours and kids having an hour or two less time to study after school..

    Another totally ridiculous rule at a couple of schools near here is the inter school soccer league (notice I made that american fiendly).. Each school HAS to have at least 3 Female players.. not a bad thing in and of itself.But at least two schools don\'t have enough girls who WANT to play soccer . However they can\'t feld boys instead they just can\'t play... now how is that right??? equality is one thing but trying to force girls to do something they don\'t want to is just wrong and having other kids missing out on their cahance to play because they don\'t meet these PC criteria is wrong...

    :cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing:

  6. #46

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    Originally posted by AinuLainour
    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Originally posted by AinuLainour
    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Originally posted by ScottRadom
    Smoking is bad for you Evil Dave. Please quit. Please?
    Living is bad for you. 100 out of 100 cases always end up in death.
    That isn\'t the point. You\'re just increasing your chances of ending your one shot at life exponentially by smoking, most people would care to do what they could to get the most out of their lives.
    That\'s because you make the common mistake of confusing Longevity with Living.

    And most people never get the most they can out of their lives no matter how long they live.
    Oh, no mistake was made. I am referring to the fact that a smoker is compromising their chances for the best life they could get.

    And most painters never make it over 9.0, that doesn\'t mean they should start drybrushing everything as most people can\'t get 9.0+ anyhow.

    Also, I don\'t want you to think I\'m trying to lecture you on smoking, but since it\'s a forum, there isn\'t really a problem with putting my opinions out there.



    I have to agree with Dave on this one. Ainu what he is trying to say I think is that no matter how long someone lives, it\'s about enjoying life. He (as many others who smoke) feel that no matter how much smoking may shorten life, it will help them enjoy it. And I completely agree with that, a long life isn\'t always enjoyable. While if you do everything in your power to enjoy life, it doesn\'t matter if it\'s not as long as long as you lived to the fullest.

  7. #47

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    First off, I\'m a parent AND a teacher... so when it comes to the younger generation I see my fill. Also, I\'m one of those 30somethings.

    In my experience (In America) I have to agree that there is a current trend toward a lack of accountability.

    When most of us were kids, our behaviors were a reflection on our parents. If we screwed up, our parents got in trouble and were held accountable. As a result, we as kids were held accountable. Somewhere along the line parents stopped being held accountable for the actions of their kids. ADD, ADHD, TV, and Society are responsible for how kids are... ultimately none of these items are able to be held truly accountable and face any sort of repurcussions for their mistakes. So, the kids aren\'t being held accountable and the parents who are neglectful aren\'t either.

    Case and point. I have had multiple students who have IEP\'s (Individual Ed. Plans) who need special accomodations made for them. Most of these kids are simply being defiant and crying out for help. If they had physical problems preventing them from performing school they would have another designation other than IEP. I have been told, \"YOU CANNOT GIVE THESE STUDENTS A FAILING GRADE FOR ANY REASON.\" So, I have a kid who doesn\'t do any work and his parents give me (the teacher) no support, and as far as I can tell aren\'t involved in their 12 year old students life much at all, and I can\'t give the student a failing mark. I HAVE TO pass them? Who is accountable for this kid????

    Sad state of affairs.

    If you have a kid. It\'s YOUR kid. The childs failings are the parents failings. This cannot be a negotiable point.
    :no:

  8. #48

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    Originally posted by NGArtStudios
    Originally posted by AinuLainour
    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Originally posted by AinuLainour
    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Originally posted by ScottRadom
    Smoking is bad for you Evil Dave. Please quit. Please?
    Living is bad for you. 100 out of 100 cases always end up in death.
    That isn\'t the point. You\'re just increasing your chances of ending your one shot at life exponentially by smoking, most people would care to do what they could to get the most out of their lives.
    That\'s because you make the common mistake of confusing Longevity with Living.

    And most people never get the most they can out of their lives no matter how long they live.
    Oh, no mistake was made. I am referring to the fact that a smoker is compromising their chances for the best life they could get.

    And most painters never make it over 9.0, that doesn\'t mean they should start drybrushing everything as most people can\'t get 9.0+ anyhow.

    Also, I don\'t want you to think I\'m trying to lecture you on smoking, but since it\'s a forum, there isn\'t really a problem with putting my opinions out there.



    I have to agree with Dave on this one. Ainu what he is trying to say I think is that no matter how long someone lives, it\'s about enjoying life. He (as many others who smoke) feel that no matter how much smoking may shorten life, it will help them enjoy it. And I completely agree with that, a long life isn\'t always enjoyable. While if you do everything in your power to enjoy life, it doesn\'t matter if it\'s not as long as long as you lived to the fullest.
    I agree on principle with this one, you should do what you enjoy, BUT when it comes to smoking I also think the argument is crap. Smoking doesn´t just take away 2-3 years from a life - it does a lot more.

    - Noone wants to spend the last 15 years of their lives tied to a bed and with tubes up their noses, slowly dying from lack of oxygen.
    - Noone wants to live their last 1-2 years in agonizing pain because their body is being eaten alive by cancer.
    - noone wants a hearttransplant or any other kind of heart/vascular-related operation.

    Studies have shown again and again that only a VERY small part of the smokers actually wants to smoke, and the rest just smoke because they can´t stop. And somehow because us non-smokers keep harping about how stupid it is to smoke ( and we do that a lot - some times to excess), it suddenly becomes a \"freedom-fight\" for something most of the smokers doesn´t really want!?

    It´s no longer about wanting to smoke because smokers enjoy it - today it´s \"I want to smoke, because everybody says I shouldn´t\"!!

  9. #49

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    Originally posted by pez5767
    First off, I\'m a parent AND a teacher... so when it comes to the younger generation I see my fill. Also, I\'m one of those 30somethings.

    In my experience (In America) I have to agree that there is a current trend toward a lack of accountability.

    When most of us were kids, our behaviors were a reflection on our parents. If we screwed up, our parents got in trouble and were held accountable. As a result, we as kids were held accountable. Somewhere along the line parents stopped being held accountable for the actions of their kids. ADD, ADHD, TV, and Society are responsible for how kids are... ultimately none of these items are able to be held truly accountable and face any sort of repurcussions for their mistakes. So, the kids aren\'t being held accountable and the parents who are neglectful aren\'t either.

    Case and point. I have had multiple students who have IEP\'s (Individual Ed. Plans) who need special accomodations made for them. Most of these kids are simply being defiant and crying out for help. If they had physical problems preventing them from performing school they would have another designation other than IEP. I have been told, \"YOU CANNOT GIVE THESE STUDENTS A FAILING GRADE FOR ANY REASON.\" So, I have a kid who doesn\'t do any work and his parents give me (the teacher) no support, and as far as I can tell aren\'t involved in their 12 year old students life much at all, and I can\'t give the student a failing mark. I HAVE TO pass them? Who is accountable for this kid????

    Sad state of affairs.

    If you have a kid. It\'s YOUR kid. The childs failings are the parents failings. This cannot be a negotiable point.
    :no:
    That´s just stupid - school isn´t the special olympics, and shouldn´t be treated as such.

    Kids shouldn´t be sheltered from falling short. It will happen a lot of times in life, and seeing it happen as a child helps you learn how to deal with it.

  10. #50

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    Originally posted by slah
    I agree on principle with this one, you should do what you enjoy, BUT when it comes to smoking I also think the argument is crap. Smoking doesn´t just take away 2-3 years from a life - it does a lot more.

    - Noone wants to spend the last 15 years of their lives tied to a bed and with tubes up their noses, slowly dying from lack of oxygen.
    - Noone wants to live their last 1-2 years in agonizing pain because their body is being eaten alive by cancer.
    - noone wants a hearttransplant or any other kind of heart/vascular-related operation.
    Nor do I want to live to be in my 90\'s with Alzheimers, nor does the future look very bright for those with reduced retirement plans from the economic troubles, nor do I suspect many of us here will be getting the social security that we\'ve paid into all our lives.
    (I\'d wager a smoker dying at 65 drains less resources than an 80 year old living on social security and medicare.)

    Quantity vs. Quality. Those extra years are pretty much worthless if they\'re going to be miserable. And sorry folks, it looks like it will be.

    Studies have shown again and again that only a VERY small part of the smokers actually wants to smoke, and the rest just smoke because they can´t stop. And somehow because us non-smokers keep harping about how stupid it is to smoke ( and we do that a lot - some times to excess), it suddenly becomes a \"freedom-fight\" for something most of the smokers doesn´t really want!?
    Aren\'t you the same guy that praises pot any time he can? What\'s the difference?

    It´s no longer about wanting to smoke because smokers enjoy it - today it´s \"I want to smoke, because everybody says I shouldn´t\"!!
    Almost but no, It\'s about \"who the hell are you to tell me how to live my life.\"

    \"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron\'s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.\"
    - C.S. Lewis

    Neither You, nor society have the right to force individuals into your ideal of what\'s good for them, especially if they are harming no one else.
    This is simply tyranny in the guise of \"compassion\".

  11. #51

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    Originally posted by demonherald

    ...frivolous lawsuits....
    And here is your main culprit. Schools are so acutely aware of legal action that it ties their hands and stifles what most would see as being reasonable responses to many situations.

    This isn\'t the fault of teachers, schools or even politicians. It\'s the product of a society that has serially abused the rights that have been granted to it.

  12. #52

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    on smoking, do what you like, its totaly within your rights to do whatever you want, but please for the love of god dont do it near me or anyone else who doesnt want it. for me private smoking = fine, its your life, live it
    public smoking= wrong, its my life, let me live mine

  13. #53

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    Originally posted by Evil Dave
    Originally posted by slah
    I agree on principle with this one, you should do what you enjoy, BUT when it comes to smoking I also think the argument is crap. Smoking doesn´t just take away 2-3 years from a life - it does a lot more.

    - Noone wants to spend the last 15 years of their lives tied to a bed and with tubes up their noses, slowly dying from lack of oxygen.
    - Noone wants to live their last 1-2 years in agonizing pain because their body is being eaten alive by cancer.
    - noone wants a hearttransplant or any other kind of heart/vascular-related operation.
    Nor do I want to live to be in my 90\'s with Alzheimers, nor does the future look very bright for those with reduced retirement plans from the economic troubles, nor do I suspect many of us here will be getting the social security that we\'ve paid into all our lives.
    (I\'d wager a smoker dying at 65 drains less resources than an 80 year old living on social security and medicare.)

    Quantity vs. Quality. Those extra years are pretty much worthless if they\'re going to be miserable. And sorry folks, it looks like it will be.

    Studies have shown again and again that only a VERY small part of the smokers actually wants to smoke, and the rest just smoke because they can´t stop. And somehow because us non-smokers keep harping about how stupid it is to smoke ( and we do that a lot - some times to excess), it suddenly becomes a \"freedom-fight\" for something most of the smokers doesn´t really want!?
    Aren\'t you the same guy that praises pot any time he can? What\'s the difference?

    It´s no longer about wanting to smoke because smokers enjoy it - today it´s \"I want to smoke, because everybody says I shouldn´t\"!!
    Almost but no, It\'s about \"who the hell are you to tell me how to live my life.\"

    \"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron\'s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.\"
    - C.S. Lewis

    Neither You, nor society have the right to force individuals into your ideal of what\'s good for them, especially if they are harming no one else.
    This is simply tyranny in the guise of \"compassion\".
    I have no problems with you smoking as long as you do it privately, and without exposing anybody else to it - none whatsoever. It´s your body and your choice!

    If you truly love smoking and you know about the risks and live with them then you should go for it. - As far as I can surmize from your posts you seem conscientious about 2nd hand smoking and such, so seriously just go for it.

    I´m not into illegalizing smoking even if it would mean better lifequality for a lot of people, and a LOT of money released on health to do good work somewhere else (again this is financially documented). Smoking is too ingrained in our lifestyle to do something like making it illegal.

    But saying that smoking is the right thing to do because you want to die young and avoid alzheimer, or avoid having to live without pension, or just because you fear your senior years are gonna be crap is silly. If that´s the reason the sane option would be to otherwise live healthy, and just go out and buy a string of rope and tip the chair over when you hit 65.

    The same thing about the \"who the hell am I to tell you how to live your life\" - I´m really not. What I´m saying is that automatically taking the opposition of the state, the \"do-godders, the liberals or the media is in fact exactly the way to let them decide how you live (even if it´s exactly the opposite of how they want you to live it ;)).

    Just make an informed decision on the basis of the facts and not on who are presenting them (I´m not saying you haven´t - I´m talking in general here)


    oh- and even though I´m probably a bleeding heart liberal I´m against pot (except maybe in paintreatment under strict control - cmon I have to say that I´m a lefty :P )

  14. #54

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    Originally posted by slah

    I have no problems with you smoking as long as you do it privately...
    Denis Leary springs to mind:

    \"What\'s the law now? You can only smoke in your apartment, under a blanket, with all the lights out? Is that the rule now, huh?\"

    Privately my arse! It\'s fine to marginalise smokers, but it\'s ok for people to shovel junk food into their pie-holes until they\'re overflowing into my plane seat? Or for bars to sell beer to people who are already fubar?

    I don\'t see anyone banning McDonalds from public view and that\'s almost as big a health risk to people.

    I reserve my right to a tab, a pie and a pint in the local beer garden!!! Even though I don\'t smoke any more...

  15. #55

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    Originally posted by Spacemunkie
    Originally posted by slah

    I have no problems with you smoking as long as you do it privately...
    Denis Leary springs to mind:

    \"What\'s the law now? You can only smoke in your apartment, under a blanket, with all the lights out? Is that the rule now, huh?\"

    Privately my arse! It\'s fine to marginalise smokers, but it\'s ok for people to shovel junk food into their pie-holes until they\'re overflowing into my plane seat? Or for bars to sell beer to people who are already fubar?

    I don\'t see anyone banning McDonalds from public view and that\'s almost as big a health risk to people.

    I reserve my right to a tab, a pie and a pint in the local beer garden!!! Even though I don\'t smoke any more...
    There is no such thing as 2nd hand eating...

    I don´t care about having to see people smoke - I don´t boycot films where the hero or bad guy smokes - I DO care about their habit contaminating my lungs, my wifes and my daughters.

  16. #56

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    As regards smoking:

    I smoke, but I don\'t own a car. While the toxins are different, I have to smoke over
    150 cigarettes per hour to match the pollution that a running car engine puts
    out every minute.

    So, when everyone stops idling their cars, I\'ll quit smoking.

    Either that, or I\'m going to start an anti-car movement to put a ban on the
    combustion engine, because it\'s threatening the health of everyone\'s lungs.

    As an additional note:
    If you run a car engine in an enclosed space with people, and no ventilation,
    there\'s a good chance they\'ll die in minutes. If you smoke a cigarettes in
    that same enclosed space for the same amount of time, odds are everyone\'s
    coming out alive.

  17. #57

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    If this is going to turn into a smoking good/evil thingy, I\'ll go ahead and throw my opinion in the mix.

    My problem with smoking ahs always been the glamorization of it. It\'s certainly been curtailed in the last 5,10, and 20 years but it used to be very cool to have a smoke. The young kids who\'d be out on the corner havign a cigarette to show the world how cool and grown up they are has always bugged me. But it\'s the addictive qualities of cigarettes that get me. The habit goes from one of shocasing your social rebellion to an actual addictive habit and doing all sorts of harm in the mean time.

    If they policed the age thing a little more, I\'d be happier. I swear to god I see kids leaving their elementary school\'s and lighting up. I don\'t think it\'s possible to say \"It\'s the parents job\" either. We were all kids and we all did stuff without getting caught from the folks.

    And besides, I think personally smoking is just plain gross. I really don\'t get how it adds to someone\'s existence to smoke. My Wife smokes, and it\'s gross. The stink, the cost etc.

    I could give a flying if anyone chooses to smoke. Go ahead. But I don\'t want to smell it. Farting isn\'t illegal, but I don\'t come over to fart on people as they eat, leave a store, go to the park with the kids etc. I do what any decent person would do, and hold it in. Until the wife and I are in bed, then I let \'er rip and cover her face with the blankets.

    Ah, the good ole Dutch Oven.

  18. #58
    Member Thomgirl's Avatar
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    I hate dutch ovens... what is it with husbands dutch ovening their wives? :p

  19. #59

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    Originally posted by ScottRadom
    I could give a flying if anyone chooses to smoke. Go ahead. But I don\'t want to smell it. Farting isn\'t illegal, but I don\'t come over to fart on people as they eat, leave a store, go to the park with the kids etc. I do what any decent person would do, and hold it in. Until the wife and I are in bed, then I let \'er rip and cover her face with the blankets.
    Well said sir. Is there a person on the planet that enjoys being blasted with perfume by the sales wench at a fru-fru dept. store? No. Why? Because it stinks and it\'s rude and I don\'t want to smell it.

    If someone wants to smoke, fine smoke. But why should I have to be subjected to your choice. I can drink all I want... so long as it doesn\'t bother anyone else. You have the option to smoke. I should get the option to not have to smell it. I can leave and so can you. I see it as you brough the stink with, you taketh the stink away.

    just my useless 2bits.

    When did this thread go smoking and non-smoking? Post jackers!

  20. #60
    Coffin Dodger / Keymaster airhead's Avatar
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    If our government really wanted to eliminate smoking, they would quit subsidising tobacco. But tobacco generates too much tax income for them.

    Most soils suitable for growing tobacco are also suitable for growing cotton or other cash crops. The farmers could switch crops without much impact. But cotton does not pay as well as tobacco.

    Follow the money.

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