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  1. #1

    Default Not entirely sure where to post this...

    Hey guys.

    I'm not entirely sure if this is appropriate for any of the sections of the forum, and if it is not, by any means just delete it moderators! I don't want to cause any problems :P

    Anyways, I am thinking about looking for investors into my business. I own a company called obsidian painting, just myself now really, and we are looking at getting into the production of paint products specifically for miniature painting. I'm not entirely sure i want investors yet, or if i want investors at all, but if anyone is interested in getting in on the process that would be quite awesome.

    I have done all the research needed and my goal is to make, Handmade Paints, to a very high quality. Input from the community on specific colours is also welcome, as i wanted to please the community in any way i can.

    The idea is to make a basic range of paints for now, possibly extending out into others later on. I want to cater to the likes and dislikes of miniature painters and, as said before, any ideas and suggestions would be appreciated and taken to heart.

    The paint products will also include a wash line, and a metallics line.

    All paints will obviously be non-toxic for us brush lickers!

    The paints will be made and bottled into 1 oz eye dropper bottles(larger bottles will be able to be ordered, and also smaller ones could be as well).

    The idea, as mentioned before, is going to have all basic colours. basic Red, Blue, Yellow, purple, orange, green, White, Black, Grey, And Brown. Once all the basics are formulated, shades, highlights and other colour combinations will also be made. Possibility for custom orders on colours not in our range.

    My entire goal is to have a complete line of paints that range from a dark version of a colour, to a light version. Possibly encompassing 10 or so paints. This makes it easier for painters, so they do not have to mix paints.

    The colour saturation of the paints will vary, from being very unsaturated to being very saturated. Once again, input from the community is welcomed.

    So, if anyone would like to leave any ideas or suggestions, or anything really, any info would be nice.

    P.S. Yes, i am aware there are alot of companies out there that make paint, however, i am possibly willing to go cheaper than most companies for more in the bottle, and i don't think any company has really included a painting community in the process of making the paint.

    Anyways.. If this is inappropriate please let me know. Or just Remove it.

    Gary.

  2. #2

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    ready mixed glazes would be nice, as WE (collective "we") all know an ink wash just isn't the same
    My Gallery <IMG SRC=http://www.coolminiornot.com/rank.php?name=mickc22> Paragon Studios

  3. #3

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    sounds interesting..
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  4. #4
    Superfreak!!! Dragonsreach's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by obsidianpainting View Post
    Hey guys.


    The paints will be made and bottled into 1 oz eye dropper bottles(larger bottles will be able to be ordered, and also smaller ones could be as well).

    Yes, i am aware there are alot of companies out there that make paint, however, i am possibly willing to go cheaper than most companies for more in the bottle, and i don't think any company has really included a painting community in the process of making the paint.
    Ok couple of things:-
    1oz in US is different size to 1oz in UK Better to quote in Ml.
    Don't even think of going cheaper, you need to make sure that your overheads are covered and your suppliers are paid. Far better making sure that your 'Boutique Paints Line' are sellable before going up against established companies like Vallejo, Coat D'arms, Foundry, Reaper P3 etc..

    What you are talking about is a hell of an outlay in terms of capital without a proven market demand. Unlike a range of miniatures which we painters will look at an buy via the net, paints are heavily dependant on market testing and response. I've tried paints from some other manfacturers and to be honest while the colours they had produced were OK, there was nothing special about the paints which would make me invest in more than one or two pots.
    As you will be well aware the amount of personal preferences shown within our forums is huge. I use Vallejo, GW, Artists Paints and anything that suites my needs at the time.
    If you are trying to go Head to Head with these big guns then you're in for an uphill struggle, if you are trying to produce alternate colours or colours which are not in the mainstream then your sales may not be in the cost effective equation for production.

    I know what I 've said seems harsh but while I appreciate what you are trying to do I don't want to see someone with an clear passion for the hobby end up in a financial struggle.
    I believe in Karma, what you give, is what you get returned. Affirmation; Savage Garden
    Oh look my IQ results came in:-
    , and proud of it.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsreach View Post
    Ok couple of things:-

    Don't even think of going cheaper, you need to make sure that your overheads are covered and your suppliers are paid. Far better making sure that your 'Boutique Paints Line' are sellable before going up against established companies like Vallejo, Coat D'arms, Foundry, Reaper P3 etc..


    I know what I 've said seems harsh but while I appreciate what you are trying to do I don't want to see someone with an clear passion for the hobby end up in a financial struggle.

    very important points there. didn't realise that the measurements were different though
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  6. #6

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    Hey,

    Thanks guys!

    I appreciate your input Dragonsreach, not harsh words at all.

    I wasn't planning on going up against the bigguns. Just to provide the option for people who wanted it. If these paints turn out as well as im hoping, which could possible be the same quality as other brands, then this more or so provides myself the opportunity to make paint more cheaply than to buy it.

    The selling it into a market is just another upside!

    And i am talking about fl.oz. so this, in Canada atleast, is 30 ml. I'm not sure what it is in the UK. could you clarify? This way i don't use confusing things, and instead ill just say 30 ml from now on.

    Thanks, Gary.

  7. #7

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    Be nice to have an ink/dye that had permanent colors.....don't fade in the sun.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawn R. L. View Post
    Be nice to have an ink/dye that had permanent colors.....don't fade in the sun.

    Interesting you say that, because one of the things i was looking at doing, was a wash(made from an ink) that does not fade, could have brilliant colours.

    Inks and washes i could literally make right now. Making paint is much harder and longer.

    How bout we start with that then, since it's much simpler. Is there anything specific about inks and or washes, you've always wanted them to have or be like? Somethings you've found bothersome about inks or washes?

    Cheers, Gary.

  9. #9

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    this sounds intriguing indeed...
    Quote Originally Posted by TrystanGST View Post
    The secret? Practice, and a desire to get better. A little talent goes a long way, but as long as you're open to advice, you can do amazing things.

  10. #10

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    Anyone have any suggestions or ideas they would like to see?

  11. #11

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    lean to walk before you run squire, lets see the quality of what you can produce so far
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  12. #12

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    I think that is a difficult question to answer.
    The vast amount of ranges (and the colours in them) out there gives you quite the option to get the perfect palette already, and I don't think there's one single shelf that looks exactly like any other when it comes to the colours in it.

    Non-fading washes that are perfectly matte are a good start, I have no idea how difficult they are to produce but I do know that most ranges have their washes slightly more glossy than their base ranges. GW Were damn close to perfection this last try but theirs are still a wee bit more shiny than their other colours.

    Keeping washes the subject, they are prone to create 'drought-marks', now this is something that is easy to avoid as a painter but perhaps that is something to start with? A good compromise of a wash that doesn't fade and creates no drought marks...

    Just a crazy idea, I'm pretty sure you would have to break the 'non-toxic'-rule with this one if it is even possible but what about a wash that discolours the already existing paint? Something that deepens and darkens the underlying colour instead of actually being a colour in itself?
    Quote Originally Posted by TrystanGST View Post
    The secret? Practice, and a desire to get better. A little talent goes a long way, but as long as you're open to advice, you can do amazing things.

  13. #13

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    I will be able to do the whole Not glossy thing pretty easily. The no drought mark, if i understand what your saying, is avoidable as a painter by just not loading so much on your brush, and not moving it around while it's drying. However i will do my best to make it pretty much impossible to accomplish that even if you have no skill at all.

    I'm not entirely sure about the last thing though.

    I will be able to create a glaze, that unlike just watered down pigment, is its own colour and will provide a 100% uniform coating. This will be transparent and will not become opaque at anytime. Different colours of these will just add depth to certain colours and i think this is as close as possible i can get to the last one. This would take more time though, as i woudl essentially have to make the acrylic paint first, then use additives. And do not worry, the additives i will be using are non-toxic. So once again Brushlickers unite!


    Edit: Would a small line of paints, with increased drying time(longer drying time) be appealing to anyone? This would help with wet blending, and not having to by slo dri or anything to do this, because the paint itself already does this.

    Gary.

  14. #14

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    For paints, would people like them more matte, or glossy.

    I would like to know everyones likes and dislikes about paints. What they prefer to see in a paint, and what they don't like about some paints.

    This would really help with coming up with formulations.

    Cheers, Gary.

  15. #15

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    This is an interesting idea, I have a little entrepreneur in my blood, but it wouldn't occur to me to try to put out a range of paints for miniature painters when there are already so many brands (GW, Vallejo, Privateer Press, Reaper, Testors, etc.). I think most of the submarkets in the model and miniature industry are covered pretty well by different paint lines. But that's one of the great things about the internet is you can sell through a website even if you won't be able to be stocked in Hobby Lobby, Hobbytown USA, etc.

    I would definitely not advise you to do this if you have to invest any more than a negligible amount of capital to get this up and running. If you can go out and just buy the chemicals for $50 and whip up a 2 gallon batch of red ink (~256 fl. oz.), then it's worth a shot, as long as you are confident it's a good product. Your variable costs are (hypothetically) only about 0.20 USD per fl. oz. plus the cost of the bottle. So if you do all of this in your house in your spare time (i.e. no overhead), with your only fixed costs being a website, it might be a fun experiment that could yield some fruit.

    Another thing is that with all of the aforementioned manufacturers who cater their paints exclusively to miniature collectors, how is your product going to be better? GW has released all sorts of different kinds of paints that are pretty solid (the only problem is the stupid containers, just copy Vallejo already and do the eye droppers!). So if these companies have large amounts of money to develop these paints, how can you do it better? They've got very talented and experienced people who've developed them over the years.

    I'd be interested in some washes maybe, especially if you did a big set for a cheap price. Maybe if you could have the same quality product and sell it for a ton less, you'd build up a steady client base, but it's probably going to take a while even then.

  16. #16

    Wink

    The thing with some major paint brands (i.e Games workshop) is that they keep changing over the years. The type of paint and formulation is starting to go down hill in my opinion.

    The price thing isn't a big issue. i could go out and buy everything i need to make maybe two gallons for about 50$ yah. thats including bottles. And this is for the washes(a.k.a the inks)

    now, once again, the only thing im doing differently than with these major paint companies, is im not a major paint company restricted by making money and using cheap materials to make a product to sell as an amazing product. (i.e gamesworkshop outsourcing to china)

    I'm not trying to bash many companies, like P3 or vallejo, or reaper or what not. The paints i will be making will be different than all of their products. And each paint brand is obviously different from another.

    One of the key things though, i think which makes this kinda better, is i am willing to try and make any colour rather than holding myself to a set list. I mean, yes i will make a set list of base colours, but im willing to mix them in an proportion to make any colour you guys want. so i think having the custom aspect to it will help cater to whatever people need. The only thing i really need to focus on is on how thick the paint should be, the concentration of pigment, how many additives and in what quantity to add, and the type of pigment used.

    I will be using natural pigments(which are non-toxic) with non-toxic additives and mediums. One thing i would like to achieve is a pain that tends not to leave visible brush strokes, is at a consistency that is not too thick which a lot of beginning painters get stuck into without diluting, dries matte, can find the perfect colour when i need to without mixing paints, can be thinned easily for blending purposes, and tastes ok! lol (maybe ill add flavouring )

    So it seems to me i need to make:
    Paint line (as described above)
    Glaze line (transparent, uniform, and matte)
    Wash line (Matte, no "drought" marks, and uniform)

    And do not worry, i do not technically plan to compete with the big guys out there, i just want to add a, as dragonsreach said, boutique paint line out there for people who want it, cause im going to be doing it anyway so might as well make i available to other people.

    Once i get some time, im going to make a batch of Black ink and a batch of Brown ink. If anyone is interesting in testing it out, and seeing what i could improve on, or if they like it, then by all means let me know if you are willing to receive some free stuff!

    Cheers, Gary.

  17. #17

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    I would start out small and work your way up to bigger and better things. I say this from experience, as I have built up a "boutique" type art magazine and website over the last few years. Those big visions are fantastic as motivation and inspiration, but it is the smaller, focused efforts that get you to the place where you can accomplish those mighty dreams.

    There are a million things you probably haven't considered that you will learn about as you build your business up. For instance, if you plan to sell in Europe, you have to make sure you are in compliance with all the EU regulations. That's something you can probably avoid as a very small boutique operation, but if you go all in with investors and tons of capital from the very beginning, you better be prepared to deal with that issue, as well as, many others.

    My advice would be this:

    Since you are so passionate about the hobby, you should ask yourself this- What product would I like to see out there right now for the miniature hobbyist? What would I personally like to use that isn't being provided right now?

    Maybe it's a line of glazes. Maybe a line of foundation paints or inks. I think that's something you should find for yourself. It will keep you passionate and very involved in the product you are about to develop.

    Make the thing that you would want to use and then USE it. Make it perfect. Get your formula exactly how YOU would paint with it. Get the packaging to how it would benefit YOUR painting style.

    Once you have that done, then whip up a batch of 100 or so sets of this ONE product. Focus on this one line at first, and then you can start getting feedback from other painters: what they did and didn't like about the product, what you could improve, etc.

    That is how you are going to realistically build a business. Like other have mentioned before, it's not the best idea to try and copy what the bigger companies have done and work to compete with them. Start small, find your niche, and build it up.

    BTW- I would love a solid set of pre-mixed glazes.

  18. #18

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    lol Thanks!

    and yah, as i mentioned before, i don't really want to compete, just want to be an alternative if that. As i said i am making this anyways, regardless if people will buy it, for my own use. IF people want it then i would most definitely sell it as well.

    My priority right now is this:
    Make Washes/Inks
    Make Acrylic Paint
    Make Glazes

    The reason the glazes are last, is i don't want to make them out of a dye or ink. I want the glazes to be made from acrylic paint. This way it ensures the colour combinations and other things. However, im thinking of a few ways to do the washes, one would be very uniform and act as a glaze, the other would act like a normal wash.

    Once i get the products i need to do this that is when i will know how things will turn out for sure.

    In my opinion, i would like a paint with a certain amount of pigment in it. The old GW paints are similar to this. I also want it to be able to have smooth coverage with minimal amount of brush strokes showing(and by smooth i do not mean that it can cover in one coat). They way i plan on making most of the colours is by mixing paints, not by creating them. I will however buy the pigments needed to make Black, Blue, Red, Yellow, White. Everything else will be made using mixes of the paints made from those pigments. So i will be using combinations of red yellow and blue to create browns, and everything else.

    This is beneficial in a few ways.
    I find that pre made paints, (example midnight blue to regal blue, to enchanted blue, to ice blue) don't blend amazingly well. They do blend, but the best blending is done when you mix a little bit of the previous colour in with the next. So, by using paints to mix the rest of the colours in the range, this would, in effect, allow all the paints to blend quite well together without having to mix previous amounts in, because they are already made from mixes of the same paint.

    It doesn't actually make a HUGE difference, but it does make a slight difference.
    Some paints will however need to be made from seperate pigments. The only way to get darker rich blues, is to use darker pigments. Mixing black into blue makes a slightly green blue. (i.e. Nightshade blue)

    Anyways, i hope this helps with what I plan on doing. and hopefully i can get more support from you guys(even though i've gotten lots already) to see where this goes.

    Thank you, any more questions or ideas, even just let me know what you would like to see out there, just post it here!

    Gary.

  19. #19

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    I would love to see a yellow and white that would cover decently over black primer. I normally use white primer if I'm going to do a lot of these colors on a mini, but I prefer a black undercoat for most of my stuff. A yellow or white that works on black primer, without a lot of coats, or requiring me to mix additives like a mad scientist, would be immensely useful. It's not a "need", because I can eventually do it with good results, but I'm a lazy person and easier is always better.

    I'm also cheap - by which I mean, if you need some product testing, I'd be happy to help :-).
    You see, fate is like a cat. Sometimes it is nice, and lets you pet it, and it sits in your lap. Sometimes it does not care at all and just wanders around ignoring you. Sometimes it farts in your face, scratches you, then coughs up a hairball on your carpet that you have to pick up.

  20. #20

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    Testing would be incredibly fun!
    Quote Originally Posted by TrystanGST View Post
    The secret? Practice, and a desire to get better. A little talent goes a long way, but as long as you're open to advice, you can do amazing things.

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