Alien Contact: Controversial Subject matter.
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Thread: Alien Contact: Controversial Subject matter.

  1. #1

    Default Alien Contact: Controversial Subject matter.

    This submission by Nakatan has generated ALOT of polarizing comments.

    I thought it would be appropriate to have a discussion about it.

    http://www.coolminiornot.com/266249




    So, what do you think? Too brutal?
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  2. #2

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    Love the painting. Hate the subject matter. Personally if I was a mod, I wouldn't have approved it. It is suggestively offensive, but it has generated a lot of talk, and maybe that was what the painter wanted.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by atacam View Post
    Love the painting. Hate the subject matter. Kinda Agree.(See Below)
    Personally if I was a mod, I wouldn't have approved it. I did but did have a belief that the discussion it would raise would be more valuable than an outright refusal.
    It is suggestively offensive, .............And that's the problem it is suggestive, there is no direct corrolation between the guy unbuckling his belt and the INTENT WE are reading into it.
    Playing Devils advocate here it could be argued that we do not know what the intent is in removing the belt, he Could be going for a Pee, he equally could be about to offer the belt as a temporary means of holding her armour back on.
    It is what we are reading into the content and says equally as much about how jaded and dark our views of warfare/situations are.

    Had this diorama been more 'explict' it I wouldn't have placed it in the gallery.
    I believe in Karma, what you give, is what you get returned. Affirmation; Savage Garden
    Oh look my IQ results came in:-
    , and proud of it.

  4. #4

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    Oh no, not this again! People discussed the hell out of it at WAMP, that's for sure. But it is worthy of discussion.

    My take, condensed, is that the painting and miniature style used don't suit such a disturbing subject, and thus tend to trivialize it. Also I believe some things just don't need to be depicted in miniatures. Even if she is going for the knife (an easily overlooked detail). Your mileage may vary, as they say.

  5. #5

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    be positive the guy with the guns stepped in told yer man to put his tackle away before he gives him a little off the top and told the other guy to give her her over the shoulder boulder holder back hence the incredulous look causing him to almost lose his cigar on the whole a positive piece showing there is still chivalry in war. the only ranking soldier there also looks as if he's about to step in too. either that or theres gonna be a gang bang. my opinion is that arts there to evoke emotions its down to you and your own perception in the end.

    p.s. legion of mary on standby?
    Last edited by cassar; 12-16-2010 at 02:10 PM.
    LAAARRFF, I SPLIT MY SIDES!!

    cassar [demigod] |ˈdemēˌgäd|
    noun ( fem. demigoddess |ˈdemēˌgädis| )
    a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.
    • a person who is greatly admired or feared.
    ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: translating Latin semideus .

    on a serious note, i do commissions, no really i do, ask and ye shall receive


  6. #6
    Empchild
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    Painting awsome, but that's too bad because of the subject matter because that destroys the artist, and the model in my eyes.

  7. #7

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    See whats going on here, it's late, it's dark and the gun has a built in flash light, other guy obviously just found some better aviators than his walmart pair and while they've stopped might aswell take a leak, theres always someone who forgets to go before they leave, all this while his mate calls for medevac and the other guy checks that bump from earlier.

    10/10 paintjob, 0/10 subjectivity.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Such Agency View Post
    Oh no, not this again! People discussed the hell out of it at WAMP, that's for sure. But it is worthy of discussion.

    My take, condensed, is that the painting and miniature style used don't suit such a disturbing subject, and thus tend to trivialize it. Also I believe some things just don't need to be depicted in miniatures. Even if she is going for the knife (an easily overlooked detail). Your mileage may vary, as they say.
    i disagree. the very nature of the 'game' trivialises war yet totally overlooks the other horrible things that come with it

    discussed on frothers too (nsfw):
    http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=30265
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  9. #9

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    The intent is clear, even if only insinuated.

    I don't find the subject taboo, or out of place at all. It is uncomfortable, yes. As a mod, I have no problem approving this pic.

    Comic books and movies use this exact same insinuation as a plot point to many of their stories. It doesn't mean that the artist approves of the disgusting activity being protrayed at all.

    The piece evokes a sense of dread, and sympathy for the main subject (the eldar). But, there is also hope of retribution (the sword).

    I'd even go one step further and say it's a bit more empowering than some of the scenes I've seen in movies or comics, because the heroine is going to have to save herself. Batman is not going to swoop down and save this gal.


    This is not as graphic and blatent as the WET NURSE was (although I'd have no problem approving that pic as well), and I think it achieves more in story telling than most dioramas I've seen on this site.

    Had the artist choose to actually show a brutal rape scene, my opinions would change drastically.

    I think it's a brilliant piece. The modelling and painting are for sure, but the evocation and thought put into it make it so.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by supervike View Post
    The intent is clear, even if only insinuated.

    I don't find the subject taboo, or out of place at all. It is uncomfortable, yes. As a mod, I have no problem approving this pic.

    Comic books and movies use this exact same insinuation as a plot point to many of their stories. It doesn't mean that the artist approves of the disgusting activity being protrayed at all.

    The piece evokes a sense of dread, and sympathy for the main subject (the eldar). But, there is also hope of retribution (the sword).

    I'd even go one step further and say it's a bit more empowering than some of the scenes I've seen in movies or comics, because the heroine is going to have to save herself. Batman is not going to swoop down and save this gal.


    This is not as graphic and blatent as the WET NURSE was (although I'd have no problem approving that pic as well), and I think it achieves more in story telling than most dioramas I've seen on this site.

    Had the artist choose to actually show a brutal rape scene, my opinions would change drastically.

    I think it's a brilliant piece. The modelling and painting are for sure, but the evocation and thought put into it make it so.
    you forgot to mention it has boobs in it lol
    LAAARRFF, I SPLIT MY SIDES!!

    cassar [demigod] |ˈdemēˌgäd|
    noun ( fem. demigoddess |ˈdemēˌgädis| )
    a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.
    • a person who is greatly admired or feared.
    ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: translating Latin semideus .

    on a serious note, i do commissions, no really i do, ask and ye shall receive


  11. #11

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    ALSO>>.I wanted to say that I know it has been discussed on other sites, but the comments this submission were receiving on this site were numerous and lengthy enough to warrant yet another topic.

    @cassar....LOL. I'm about more than just boobs. (not really)

  12. #12

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    I absolutely LOVE this diorama. The subject matter is dark, but that's great to see. We are all so desensitized to ~killing~ and it is shown in many dioramas and artwork and everything with this hobby. Somehow killing is OK subject matter but potential rape is somehow MUCH worse to people? I am happy this was approved and I got a chance to see it. It just shows another dark aspect of war, and to think something like this would not happen in the 40K universe, well it would - unless you think the Imperial Guardsmen are NOT men. lol
    Anyways, I am just wondering how this can be offensive to an adult? We watch movies and television that's a lot worse... I find it refreshing; at times this feels like a childish hobby, catering to the kids... after all companies like GW's target marketing mix is for the youngsters. And I think this diorama is so good, because what's about to happen is implicit, and it's not taken too far.
    GREAT job Nakatan! 10's across the board~

  13. #13

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    Really, the argument of what we read into intent holds very little water. The only way you could honestly not infer impending rape (or at least attempt, since one can hope that her superior Eldar strength and speed will turn the tables once she grabs hold of that knife,) is if you are completely ignorant of such matters or aren't good at reading contextual cues in social environments.

    FWIW, I personally don't think that this is appropriate subject matter for a miniatures diorama, and certainly not for this site (we seriously gotta get an Adult Content filter- won't someone PLEASE think of the children!!) Horrible things do happen in life and war, but it doesn't necessarily follow that it's open season for all of them. Some folks cry hypocrisy when people get upset about something like this because "we" are allegedly okay with graphic depictions of over-the-top gut-splattering violence, but speaking for myself I don't care for those either.

    'vike brought up emotional evocation: indeed, much of that lies with the viewer, but when a piece has a certain "hurr hurr" feel to it (again, that lies with the viewer,) then that makes it a bit more difficult to defend, especially with a name like "Alien Contact," which comes off as an attempt at humor. Another thing is whether or not people WANT their emotions prodded. If someone had made a realistic, heart-wrenchingly emotional piece implying impending child molestation, I think a few more people would be upset; it may have technical brilliance (I have always loved Nakatan's work before, 'cept the "gutsy" chaos piece he did a bit ago, which I hadn't seen before I saw this one,) it may depict a real event, but it leaves the viewer with an experience that they jolly-well may not have wanted. And since it pops up without warning when you're browsing the gallery, I think folks have every reason to object to it. Kind of a "You watched it, you can't UN-watch it!" effect, and it puts me in mind of anti-abortionists plastering their gory posters outside high schools- and they at least are doing so trying to put a stop to the depicted act; I doubt Nakatan can claim that he made this to raise awareness and sympathy for rape victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elly3438 View Post
    We watch movies and television that's a lot worse
    Speak for yerself; I have to deal with the mental and emotional fallout from this kind of thing at work, I sure as hell don't want to watch it on the screen! And I seriously don't get how people who do derive entertainment from it.
    Last edited by Gearhead; 12-16-2010 at 03:44 PM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gearhead View Post
    .

    FWIW, I personally don't think that this is appropriate subject matter for a miniatures diorama, and certainly not for this site (we seriously gotta get an Adult Content filter- won't someone PLEASE think of the children!!)

    Maybe a small consideration (and not sure if it does hold any water), but I've always understood that this site is designed for adults, not children. This is the first rule of the forum rules that everyone needed to agree with before they signed up:

    1. Use of CoolMiniOrNot is available only to individuals who can form legally binding contracts under applicable law. This excludes in all cases minors (persons who have not reached their eighteenth birthday).

    Now whether or not this is policed is another matter, but it is an ace in the hole so to speak.



    Now, that doesn't necesarily address whether or not this is an appropriate subject matter for miniatures, but does address whether or not it should be allowed on the site.

  15. #15

  16. #16

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    Gearhead - Really... comparing this diorama with real life gory pictures? That's a pretty unfair comparison. Like I said, I am glad this popped up in the gallery. Instead of "*sigh*, another Space Wolf" you get a well thought out piece of art. You may not like the subject matter but it's not THAT bad... it's not like he made a porno scene. Like I said, what makes killing so cool and acceptable (which I ask, why aren't you protesting the whole hobby, which glorifies death and war?), but this situation Nakatan depicted unacceptable?
    I don't think Nakatan needs a reason to have made this scene, or some noble reason for making it. It's a great idea and I praise him for having the kohonas for pulling it off as well as he did. If you looked at it, didn't like it, vote and move on. And as far as "protect the children" is concerned, I doubt kids really understand what is going on, and if they do, well you didn't do a good job of protecting them lol

  17. #17

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    We are probly all desensitized at a relative young age these days, I'm sure lots have seen Saving Private Ryan, Band Of Brothers, played Call of Duty, Grand Theft Auto and so on, war and violence is an 'everyday event' and a big money industry, either through movies, TV shows, the news and the like. Continued exposure makes it acceptable to the masses, I can see why this subject matter is offensive to alot of people, you don't see graphic hollywood rape blockbusters, or people rushing out to buy the latest xbox rape adventure, which is probly why it's less acceptable than war and violence through sheer weight of exposure, and I think it should remain like that. I'm not personally offended per say, I think it's a crap concept and a shame to have such a nice paint job on a scene that really isn't necessary to put into a mini display.

  18. #18

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    Hey, men. I told you already that i`m not a psycho, or a perverted maniac. It looks like it`s okay for toy guardsman to rip toy guts of this toy eldar girl with his toy knife, if he meets her on the gameboard or on the book pages, but it`s not okay for him to do what he`s going to do on my diorama? Double standarts indeed. I`m playing this game, i`m reading the codex fluff, i`m watching pictures on this site. And loads of top-rated pictures depicts naked girls and slanesh daemonettes, Blanche`s arts a sickingly cruel and even sexual sometimes, and even codex fluff full of brutality, kills, torture and perverted sex! Yeah, 6edition DElves armybook gives us some clues that Malekith has sexual relations with Morathi (his MOTHER!!!). How could i imagine that somebody will be so upset by my scene? I certanly do NOT feel myself doing something wrong. Wargaming miniatures are NOT FOR KIDS. It`s clearly marked on the box.

    And i do not wanted to shock anyone. No offence in my words, no offence in my works. Treat them like a stories that YOU have a chance to finish. Sorry for my english, and don`t think bad about me and my toy stories. Regards.

  19. #19

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    comparing this diorama with real life gory pictures? That's a pretty unfair comparison.
    I said "it puts me in mind." It's not the same thing as equating the two. My point in bringing that up is that some materials or subjects are increasingly likely to elicit an undesired reaction in the viewer, who has little-to-no say as to whether they want to view it (yes, coming to CMON is voluntary, but I'm pretty sure if someone'd had been asked 2 months ago, very very few people would have said that they would be likely to see a miniature scene of rape on the site,) and they're stuck with the reaction and the memory. It's not enough to say "vote and move on," because it's not that simple.

    Also, in case you didn't get it, my "think of the children" comment was a bit of a joke. You're right that kid's aren't likely to understand the implication of the scene (other than BOOBIES!), but it should be apparent from the varied reactions that there are a few adults who would prefer not to view material like this, for whatever reason. Yes, I know, they can go elsewhere, and if CMON becomes a place where people can depict any subject, no matter how extreme, they just might do that. Personally, I'd like to see bit of restraint.

    [edit] You know, I wonder if part of what's going on here (I think someone alluded to it earlier,) is the fact that, since this is a hobby, and with heavy elements of fantasy, some of us really do prefer to tone it down a bit- because if we get to thinking too much about what it really is that we're playing at, it'd lose the fun. A personal example is the Orks. Now, I find them very humorous and fun, largely because of their comically single-minded approach to life and boisterous nature (and cockney accents, of course.) But if you really stop and think about it, holy hell, would they ever be the most horrific thing to have to live next door to! Adventure and conflict can be fun fantasies to indulge in, but I doubt there's anyone here who, if they really had any idea what war is like, would have the slightest desire to run headlong towards one giggling with glee, and I guess some don't like to be reminded of what it REALLY is we're playing at in this hobby.

    Nakatan, you raise good points about John Blanche's work, and those are all reasons that there are some Codices I don't own or read through, and there are definitely times when I think they're taking the GrimDark to a level that's just not necessary for a game. I think one thing is that, while it's known that all the stuff you mentioned goes on (seriously, we ALL know what kinds of things the Emperor's Children get up to) it's usually alluded to with at least another degree of separation than your diorama depicts. While fluff might talk about depraved acts in more general terms, you're showing someone exposed, at gunpoint, with a leering trooper standing over her with his fly open- you've made it much harder to gloss over. Many applaud you for it, but I question if it's necessary. For me, this is a hobby that I do for fun, and rape (even attempted) just takes the fun right out of everything. It drops the ugly reality of the sorts of horrible suffering that people inflict on each other right into plain view, and there's enough of that in the real world that I'd rather do without it here.
    Last edited by Gearhead; 12-16-2010 at 05:36 PM.

  20. #20

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    I guess it just depends on what you find appropriate or not. For me, miniatures are a form of art, so anything goes. It's a story that is meant to make you think, and as Nakatan said, finish however you please. That's the point of art! If it didn't get an emotional reaction from you, then it didn't do it's job. This piece is probably one of the bests ever posted on this site for me, just for the fact that it has drawn so much attention because it really drew you into the scene, where you had to deal with crimes of real humanity instead of the fantasy land we are used to with this hobby.
    It's up to CMON to set the bar however they wish, but I am glad they allowed this. It shows they can respect it as a story telling art form, and this site isn't just about showing painted Sigvald #956 while we judge the same ole various techniques....

    Keep up the good work Nakatan!

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