Some people live in a different world to "normal" people.

[Torn blue sky]

That's it exactly! If you're not wearing a tattie sack round these parts, you're deemed a bit of a slapper. Never leave home without mine!

[Roger Bunting]

I don't think it's specifically the stockings, it's the whole thing, bbob tube, mini skirt, stockings, high heels and the bumpin' and grinding.

[noneedforaname]

I don't think it's specifically the stockings, it's the whole thing, bbob tube, mini skirt, stockings, high heels and the bumpin' and grinding.

To be fair it's not just the lil girls, if I did the same in that get up people would still find it disturbing

[Dedwrekka]

Quite shocking to our minds, but in dickensian times and earlier working girls could be around twelve years old. Don't know if that trade is associated with gypsy women necessarily.

You see, but at that time prostitution was the safe work alternative for 10 and 12 year olds who's other options often involved crawling inside machinery to fix parts (while it was still on) or getting mangled just working on those machines when they weren't broken.
A shift change at a factory or weaving house looked like a group of pre-teen soldiers coming back from WWI.

[montka]

I hope that is an exaggeration Mr wrekka, since I am already mind weary of human injustice, but it just keeps coming. I don't even watch the news theae days.

Surely prostitutes had very high risks? Can't chlamidia kill you for example?

What I always wondered was in ancient times didn't working girls get pregnant then surely out of work for six months? Plus an extra mouth to feed.

[Dedwrekka]

I hope that is an exaggeration Mr wrekka, since I am already mind weary of human injustice, but it just keeps coming. I don't even watch the news theae days.

Not at all. In fact many or most of the brothels up till even the 1930s did regular physical and visual inspections of clientelle and ladies, even having staff doctors and bouncers. Because when their body is the product they try to keep it in good shape. In fact illegalization did more to hurt the industry by handing it almost entirely over to the pimps and seedier places of illrepute which didn't even inspect people and would cater to people who got off on just hurting others.

The "plight of the factory children" and their mangled or missing limbs are what started the child labor laws in the US. This was a period where most of the factory workers came from farming backgrounds. If you've ever worked on a farm you understand that work begins pretty young with simple chores and moves from there. So the immigrants that lived in the big cities and came from a farming background saw nothing wrong with children working at as young as 8 years old. Prostitution was not the job families had in mind, but it happened often enough that there would be little factory work or the children would run away from factory work and well.... Terrible, yeah. Horrible, certainly. And I'm glad we don't live in that era anymore.

What I always wondered was in ancient times didn't working girls get pregnant then surely out of work for six months? Plus an extra mouth to feed.

Depends on how ancient you want to go. In Roman times (early and late) there was a booming prostitution industry. Some were slaves and some were freedwoman (and a few cases of noblewomen in a form of prostitution, at least one wife of a Ceasar who reveled in being the biggest prostitute of them all), though "slavery" in urban areas was different than what we might think of it. There were "good" and "bad" brothels. The "good" ones had selected clinetelle and paid their prostitutes well with access to the baths and greek practicioners (often slaves). The "bad" ones were flophouses with little control and handlers (ie pimps). Anything after that is a crapshoot when it comes to ill-repute because it wasn't often recorded until around the Jack the Ripper killings or the Industrial Revolution. They certainly got pregnant, but depending on which side of the scale you were on decided how that was handled.

[montka]

Wow good info. Well I say good...

Do you see my point re wouldn't inevitable pregnancy preclude working in the oldest trade for any great stretch of time? plus when infants are born if the woman raises the babie ie suckles it herself she will not be able to work as well.

Saying this, I read that during ww2 the Japanese ran state brothels where all of the above happened and soldiers had been known to... actually I won't go into it. But basically they were prepared to terminate the babies lives that resulted from their whore houses.

Now, the Romans were cruel enough to feed people to lions for worshipping a god of peace, and prostitutes were slaves who had no right to life in the first place, let alone their offspring, I imagine the ancients had a grim solution to the quandary.

Not to mention that, in the UK, before state medical abortion, women had been known to use sharp coat hangers to abort unwanted fetuses.


Suddenly I'm not bothered by a six year old in stockings.

[Dedwrekka]

Do you see my point re wouldn't inevitable pregnancy preclude working in the oldest trade for any great stretch of time? plus when infants are born if the woman raises the babie ie suckles it herself she will not be able to work as well.

There were contraceptive techniques and the use of certain herbs to prevent pregnancy. For a slave it was up to the owner to decide what would happen, but for the freedwoman or citizen (who were more common) it was the decision of the pariarch, husband, or themselves depending on their situation.

[cassar]

Not at all. In fact many or most of the brothels up till even the 1930s did regular physical and visual inspections of clientelle and ladies, even having staff doctors and bouncers. Because when their body is the product they try to keep it in good shape. In fact illegalization did more to hurt the industry by handing it almost entirely over to the pimps and seedier places of illrepute which didn't even inspect people and would cater to people who got off on just hurting others.

The "plight of the factory children" and their mangled or missing limbs are what started the child labor laws in the US. This was a period where most of the factory workers came from farming backgrounds. If you've ever worked on a farm you understand that work begins pretty young with simple chores and moves from there. So the immigrants that lived in the big cities and came from a farming background saw nothing wrong with children working at as young as 8 years old. Prostitution was not the job families had in mind, but it happened often enough that there would be little factory work or the children would run away from factory work and well.... Terrible, yeah. Horrible, certainly. And I'm glad we don't live in that era anymore.



Depends on how ancient you want to go. In Roman times (early and late) there was a booming prostitution industry. Some were slaves and some were freedwoman (and a few cases of noblewomen in a form of prostitution, at least one wife of a Ceasar who reveled in being the biggest prostitute of them all), though "slavery" in urban areas was different than what we might think of it. There were "good" and "bad" brothels. The "good" ones had selected clinetelle and paid their prostitutes well with access to the baths and greek practicioners (often slaves). The "bad" ones were flophouses with little control and handlers (ie pimps). Anything after that is a crapshoot when it comes to ill-repute because it wasn't often recorded until around the Jack the Ripper killings or the Industrial Revolution. They certainly got pregnant, but depending on which side of the scale you were on decided how that was handled.

think it was claudius's wife messalina had a bet with the local top working girl of the time that she could handle more blokes than her, i believe she won too

[Dedwrekka]

think it was claudius's wife messalina had a bet with the local top working girl of the time that she could handle more blokes than her, i believe she won too

Yeah, that's the one I was referring to. Nero was also known for selling the wives and daughters of nobles into prostitution. Though Seutonius is something closer to a tabloid reporter than a historian, and Juvenal is full of satire, so I do give both stories more than a grain of salt.

[Aliengod3]

At first when I read the caption about some people living in a different world than normal people I thought you were talking about schizophrenics. Yeah it is pretty crazy that people can afford such expensive stuff. I think it is even more crazy that mark zuckerberg has around $6 billion for owning a percentage of facebook. I think even if I had that kind of money, and I will some day , I would not buy dresses for tens of thousands of dollars... I would buy everyone on CMON a house instead

[supervike]

You sure have alot of information about historical prostitution. How'd that happen? Did you write a paper on it?

[Dedwrekka]

You sure have alot of information about historical prostitution. How'd that happen? Did you write a paper on it?

Wrote a paper (by the by, extra points on economics papers if you make something immoral or controvercial sound like good business sense, apparently), read a couple of roman historians (there wasn't a ceasar who apparently wasn't involved in it in some way), and the History channel seems to be going the way of every other channel and showing a lot of documentaries on sex, secrets, and "mysteries" to pull in the ratings.

At first when I read the caption about some people living in a different world than normal people I thought you were talking about schizophrenics. Yeah it is pretty crazy that people can afford such expensive stuff. I think it is even more crazy that mark zuckerberg has around $6 billion for owning a percentage of facebook. I think even if I had that kind of money, and I will some day , I would not buy dresses for tens of thousands of dollars... I would buy everyone on CMON a house instead

Which always confused me. If these people already have that much money, why blow it on luxury items right away when you can use it to make even more money by starting businesses or investing? Then you can get the really big yacht or buy everyone at the wedding a $6k set of clothes or whatever.

[Dragonsreach]

You see, but at that time prostitution was the safe work alternative for 10 and 12 year olds who's other options often involved crawling inside machinery to fix parts (while it was still on) or getting mangled just working on those machines when they weren't broken

Sorry; I'm calling serious inaccuracy on this one.
Child Prostitution and Prostitution in general was lead by dire economic factors, not as an alternative to factory work. With the development of the second phase of the industrial revolution in the UK and other countries, increased population density in industrial and commercial cities meant that workers were literally "ten a penny" and employers could hire worker for starvation wages. Therefore Prostitution as a sideline amongst factory workers became not uncommon, especially when the earnings for a 10 minute "bunk up against a wall" could mean the difference between feeding a family or going hungry.
Child prostitution was only deemed to be "morally outrageous" in the 19th Century when factors around the growing levels of poverty, poor housing, sanitation and disease came to a head in the Cholera epidemics in the UK. When (for want of better term) "gentrified" people were put at risk by the epidemics that is when the moral/puritanical christian and evangelical groups took note and put pressure to make social changes, one of which was aimed at reducing prostitution in all forms and the introduction of an "Age of Consent" was enacted. I think that you need to remember that even after these social changes, in the 1880's in London there were still significant numbers of prostitues working in the "respectable" areas and not just in the working class areas.

Our perception child innocense and protection is only a very recent thing in terms of human history, look to Shakespeare's "Romeo & Juliet" and their respective ages, and let's not forget that on the 14th of this month we 'celebrate' St. Valentines day as a tribute to lovers, when in fact he was a procurer of child wedding partners to Romans.

[Dedwrekka]

Sorry; I'm calling serious inaccuracy on this one.
Child Prostitution and Prostitution in general was lead by dire economic factors, not as an alternative to factory work.

No argument there, I was simply pointing out that what is now considered an outrage worthy of stoning even in our modern times was less outrageous than the regular factory jobs of the time. I even added it when I expanded my comment in the next post:

Prostitution was not the job families had in mind, but it happened often enough that there would be little factory work or the children would run away from factory work and well.... Terrible, yeah. Horrible, certainly. And I'm glad we don't live in that era anymore.

With the development of the second phase of the industrial revolution in the UK and other countries, increased population density in industrial and commercial cities meant that workers were literally "ten a penny" and employers could hire worker for starvation wages. Therefore Prostitution as a sideline amongst factory workers became not uncommon, especially when the earnings for a 10 minute "bunk up against a wall" could mean the difference between feeding a family or going hungry.

If they weren't working 20 hour shifts or at another factory, yeah. Sexing your way up the corporate ladder (into a secretary or mistress position) also wasn't unheard of either.

I think that you need to remember that even after these social changes, in the 1880's in London there were still significant numbers of prostitues working in the "respectable" areas and not just in the working class areas.

Yes but a large number of those "respectable area" prostitutes were either part of "sex clubs", "gentleman's clubs" or brothels. Which were the more respectable of the two, often with health policies regarding the girls and clientele. Because generally the bobbies and coppers around respectable areas didn't like seeing the public harassed while walking on the street. It's somewhat much the same today, just brushed off the headlines unless someone important gets caught up in it. When the "moral right" popped their heads up in this time they targeted brothels and gentlemen's clubs as much as the working class prostitutes.

[/quote]
Our perception child innocense and protection is only a very recent thing in terms of human history, look to Shakespeare's "Romeo & Juliet" and their respective ages, and let's not forget that on the 14th of this month we 'celebrate' St. Valentines day as a tribute to lovers, when in fact he was a procurer of child wedding partners to Romans.[/QUOTE]

While I like to think of today's times as much more civilized and protective, I try not to apply modern morals to past events as it just skews them or glosses over aspects of history. Much like the people who attempted to censer Pompei tried when it was discovered.