With metallics, I wonder...do less layers = better?
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Thread: With metallics, I wonder...do less layers = better?

  1. #1
    Jarrett Lee
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    Default With metallics, I wonder...do less layers = better?

    I just spent quite a bit of time adding several layers of highlites to a full suit of gold armor on a champion of slaanesh.

    I started from a base of Vallejo Flat brown (non-metallic), then Shining gold, then 4-5 more layers adding lighter golds and eventually silver. Then I glazed it per Jakob\'s method with Tamiya orange watered down (with a touch of Vallejo smoke - my own little experiment).

    Problem is, despite using very thin layers, tons of extender and metallic medium and matte medium and thinners and all that jazz, the paintjob is kinda grainy looking! The whole time I was doing it, I was watching for graininess to try and prevent it. I didn\'t really see any. But now that I\'m done, and photograph it, it\'s grainy.

    What a friggin pain!

    Do you think using too many layers might contribute to the grainy appearance?

    Can\'t post a shot yet, it\'s for a contest this week.

    Jarrett

  2. #2
    Hi-lite-r
    Guest

    Default

    Ok my experinces with painting anything other than silvers is this....

    Most of the other metallics, be it GW, vallejo, whatever, are always grainier than the silvers. Too stop this i base all my metallics with chainmail, boltgun metal, mithril silver. I then dry bursh a layer or two of a mix of chainmail and the metallic you are actually wanting to paint. then using really thin washes i paint on the actual color mixed with a little flesh wash, or if i don\'t want the brown tint i mix in gloss varnish. I have tried all the extenders, added mediums, and all that wonderfull extra crap. And i still think this method brings better results in my experience.

    cheers

  3. #3

    Default

    I\'ve been trying to work more with metallics lately and they are seriously a pain to deal with, as far as getting them smooth looking.

    I have picked up all the Tamiya clear colors and will be testing them out soon. Hopefully I can get them to work.

    I do find that using silver colors washed with (or glazed with the Tamiyas, I would assume) comes out looking a little smoother, as noted above...though perhaps not as \'true\' to the intended color.

  4. #4

    Default

    I just went through the same thing with Reaper True Silver, every place I tried to use it came out grainy.

    Also, I tried using Tamiya Smoke as a glaze over Reaper Gun Metal and the result is very nice. But - my first try I had to start over again because my paint wasn\'t dry and the Tamiya Smoke made the paint come off in spots, so that might also be the cause of your graininess.

  5. #5

    Default

    personally i think that GW metallics are the best, quite dificult to work with but with the best finish. The key here is to highlight it the less and shade it with inks or Clear colours to achieve the desired effect

  6. #6

    Default

    I think you could have used shining gold, then immediately mithril silver. Because as said above, the silvers work better than the other paints.

    The best way IMO is to paint your gold areas is, just las with any metallic colour, to do your base, highlite with mithril silver, and then work only with inks/glazes to achieve the desired effect. Without any colour between gold and mithhril.
    Tones of green work pretty well to shade gold BTW.

  7. #7

    Default

    With the GW metalics ( and any make paints for that matter) you do have to keep the paints thin (like when highlighting with other \'normal\' colours) but you do have to be very careful not to oversaturate the paint with water/ extender or else the fine metalic paint flakes tend to seperate from the binder. If this happens it leads to the grainyness. Try to keep the paint thin and if the paint starts to seperate it is best to make up a new batch of highlight colour to avoid getting the grainyness.

    Dave

  8. #8

    Default

    Originally posted by dave3555
    With the GW metalics ( and any make paints for that matter) you do have to keep the paints thin (like when highlighting with other \'normal\' colours) but you do have to be very careful not to oversaturate the paint with water/ extender or else the fine metalic paint flakes tend to seperate from the binder. If this happens it leads to the grainyness. Try to keep the paint thin and if the paint starts to seperate it is best to make up a new batch of highlight colour to avoid getting the grainyness.

    Dave
    Hmm, that is probably what happened with that Reaper True Silver, too much thinner. Never thought ogf that; thanks!

  9. #9
    Jarrett Lee
    Guest

    Default

    Hm, that\'s probably what happened.

    Great - now I have to worry about too thick AND too thin! ARgh!

    :)

    Jarrett

  10. #10
    Superfreak!!! Dragonsreach's Avatar
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    Default

    Jarret:
    Great - now I have to worry about too thick AND too thin! ARgh!
    As long as it\'s paint don\'t worry. It\'s when those two issues are waistline and hair that it becomes a problem. lol:rolleyes:lol

  11. #11

    Default

    You could thin your paints(or at least decrease the pigment density) with vallejo\'s matte medium(I use some water too). Allan C mentions it in the thread titled \"French GD\":

    http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/viewthread.php?tid=4138

  12. #12
    Jarrett Lee
    Guest

    Default

    In this situation I used that, plus some metallic medium, plus some extender. Apparently, the cocktail was too rich :)

  13. #13

    Default

    I find that minimal highlights works best.Using lots of glazes and washes to get the shadows right.
    For silver/steel go with gunmetal with mithral highlight,then the inks for the shadows.Its like instead of blending up the highlights,blend down the lowlights with inks etc.
    For gold Ive used tin bitz base,tin bitz/burnished gold mix then b.gold.Then the inks.Mithral last for light sources.

  14. #14

    Default

    Sorry about that, you mentioned it in your first post. :rolleyes: I wasn\'t paying attention.

    Most of the time I just use straight future(or future/water(50:50) to thin my metals, as I don\'t mind the shine. But I assume you\'ve tried this already.

  15. #15

    Default Metallics

    Metallics can get grainy when they aren\'t thinned down enough or when the paint is allowed to dry on the brush, and then gets applied to the miniature itself. I have switched completely over to Vallejo Game Color and find their metallics are perfect for my own needs. They thin down very well, and when applied in thin washes I can control where I want it the brightest and where I want it the dullest.

    One of my most recent finds was from the French list. (Je parle en peu francais.) Cyril, Allen C, and Bragonart are amazing, and their techniques for painting metallics has helped to push my abilities.

    For my most recent work I started with a darker tone, Boltgun Metal, and apply that in a couple thin layers. I will highlight with Chainmail and Silver but the metallics are thinned down so that it takes up to 3-4 layers to get the shine I like. I also folllow the SE effect, with Chainmail being the midtone and the Silver and Boltgun metal close to each other near the \'middle\'. The Reaper Ork is an example of this.

    Then I\'ll start to apply the washes for either a rusty effect or a blackened metal. I will take Bestial Brown, Blood Red, and Chaos Black then water it down to a wash/glaze, (a 1:1:1:15 ratio.) This is used for rust or browns. For blackened metal I use Charred Brown, Stormy Blue, and Blood Red.

    If you want to use GW inks I recommend Brown or Chestnut Ink for rust, and Black and Blue Ink mixed in a 1:1 ratio for blued metal. These are thinned down to a wash, which works but there is a depth of color to the mixing of paints and washing them down. (Vallejo paints Kick Ass for keeping pigment when thinned down.) Once the washes are applied I will go back and reapply any highlights or midtones where needed. I am also feather-blending as I do this, ensuring a smooth transition between hues/metallics.

    When it comes to thinning paints, I use water predominately. I have used some extender for the thinned pigment washes, but for the metallics water seems to work.

    I have used the Transparent Paints by Tamaiya and I love them! They are like Inks but you have control over them that you cannot get with Inks and the colors are so rich it blows me away. In the last few pieces I\'ve finished have not had Inks used on them at all. I like how they contain more depth of color and avoid the glossy effect Inks are known for. (This can happen with the Tranparents, but the Matte Medium will remove this as well.) Experiment with them if you can. You won\'t be disappointed.

    Hope this helps. (I need to do a tutorial and post it on my site...) If anyone has any questions feel free to e-mail me at rg@raginggaijin.com.

    Peace,

  16. #16

    Default Feathering

    Dude, Terry showed me the video of you feathering metallics with the wet brush one late night in a hotel in Calgary....

    I have tried it and I must say, it works wonders. You should try to get that explained a little if you do a tutorial up :)

    Keep kickin\' ass.

  17. #17

    Default Feather blending metallics

    I\'ll do that. Thanks for the feedback, Zaph!

    Cheers,

  18. #18

    Default

    I have to agree w/ raginggaijin about the game colour metallics ... they thin wonderfully. I\'ve been using mithril silver a lot and then tinting it with a number of non-metallic colors to get the shades I want. It\'s worked very nicely and I have a feeling that I may be using the technique very regularly now that I\'m convinced it works.

    jim

  19. #19
    t_haye2
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    Default

    hmmm, don\'t use any flow extender in my metallics, or any stuff like that. This is what i achieve using bare Gw metallics, from shining gold over white, shing mixed with mithril and pure mithril. inbetween the stages I applied flesh wash mixed with yellow glazes. It has a lot to do with how smooth your brushes are too i think.

    Metallics wip

  20. #20
    WurzagUdUraZahuba
    Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by t_haye2
    hmmm, don\'t use any flow extender in my metallics, or any stuff like that. This is what i achieve using bare Gw metallics, from shining gold over white, shing mixed with mithril and pure mithril. inbetween the stages I applied flesh wash mixed with yellow glazes. It has a lot to do with how smooth your brushes are too i think.

    Metallics wip
    what\'s the difference between a wash and a glaze. Also don\'t you find that they leave a glossy finish?

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