Scibor, why people be hating? :S - Page 2
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Thread: Scibor, why people be hating? :S

  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogfacedboy uk1 View Post
    You answered your own question right there. People have varied tastes, just because you think it is amazing does not mean everyone else does.
    I don't think it was that there were some low ratings in the mix that the OP was curious about, but rather the vehemence of some people's feelings on the matter. The making texture stamps from other people's sculpts certainly explains some of that, though, as do the allegations of infringement.

    One thing I'm curious about, though. Most of the people describing the bad things Scibor has done all used past tense. Has he stopped?

  2. #22
    Senior Member dennis.'s Avatar
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    I have problems filling joints with green stuff, i tip my hat to Scibor and all sculptors... even you dfb

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by FigureSculptor View Post
    One thing I'm curious about, though. Most of the people describing the bad things Scibor has done all used past tense. Has he stopped?
    the more severe stuff he stopped. He started off saying that conversions were original sculpts. Now he mostly does blatant 'not space marines' which aren't as bad but still pretty dodgy, legally speaking. Like I say, it's a shame because he clearly has talent, and humour (his valentines models have been funny and down right disturbing) it just seems wasted..
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  4. #24
    Brushlicker dogfacedboy uk1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennis. View Post
    I have problems filling joints with green stuff, i tip my hat to Scibor and all sculptors... even you dfb
    Hehehe dennis, or should I say menace. Good to see you about again mate. Now start a thread in the WIP section whilst your here, I desperately need to see you work some magic on some minis, especially maybe those Dark Elves you had going a while back........

    Figure Sculptor - Scibor still makes "Space Knights", there is the odd one I dont mind, but they pale into insignificance next to his original work. He's a great artist. His "not the bear from the Golden Compass" is worth checking out and he has a shed load of other bits to. Head over to his website to look for yourself. I also like his busts. You will see what I mean for yourself. If you are reading this Scibor, more original stuff please - keep it coming and keep me laughing with your funny sculpts too. Space Knight on a toilet reading white dwarf and using it to wipe his butt might be a really funny piece......

    dfb


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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by FigureSculptor View Post
    "The use of press molds and texture stamps is a common practice by used pretty much all professional sculptors, especially when doing hard-edged sculpting like space marines or decorative plate armor".
    So did the Rackham sculptors do all their filigree on the confrontation figures using press molds? How about any GW sculptors? Werner Klocke on his Freebooter figs? Which professional sculptors actually use that type of press-molding? I know, it must be Jacques Alexandre Gillois that Scibor borrowed that technique from, or maybe it was Aragorn Marks.

  6. #26

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    So...I'm not clear on your point...

    Texture molds are very common, I'd wager all those above have used them at some point and will again at some future point.

  7. #27

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    I think this is a really interesting thread. As long as this chap is not passing his work off as something it's not - it's great... Whether I like it or not is quite irrelevant and that's a different question - I still think it's great.

    I find the knee-jerk culture of IP protection, particularly in generic sci-fi / fantasy quite abhorrent.

    I think people should watch this TED talk by Larry Lessig:

    http://www.ted.com/talks/larry_lessig_says_the_law_is_strangling_creativity .html

    S
    cibor Rocks - good luck to him I say... and to more like him...

  8. #28

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    The use of press molds and texture stamps is a common practice by used pretty much all professional sculptors, especially when doing hard-edged sculpting like space marines or decorative plate armor.
    err..... I'm a professional designer/sculptor/painter and I've never found it necessary to use this technique.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by QuietiManes View Post
    So...I'm not clear on your point...

    Texture molds are very common, I'd wager all those above have used them at some point and will again at some future point.

    Wagering when you don't understand the nature of the issue is not a good way to win. The issue people have had has only been related to the press molding of flat armor plates onto an milled surface with tooled lines to create the appearance of sculpted fillagree. This is his signature technique for years, something that even a cursory search through these forums would have uncovered. I will take your wager, by the way, if you think any professional sculptors do this same technique to make their armor. Whether it is good or not is a matter of opinion and taste.

  10. #30

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    Whatever does the trick, it's not like he's tried to hide it or anything.

    Press molding is very common, 3D printing the mold first is not. If i want to do similar bolts for example I would not do each separately but make a quick mold and save a lot of time. The same if I want a particular little sculpted detail looking the same, say some kind of insignia for an army. The filigree on armor plates like he does it isn't very common on sculpts in the first place, but would I do it I'd rather do it his way if I'm doing more then one.

    The issue with Scibors sculpts are that they haven't got a great finish, often there are sloppy details. For armies it doesn't matter that much but for individual minis it is frustrating and takes a part of joy out of painting them. Just to be fair I have had the same experience with several other sculptors like Alex Hedström and the Perry twins lotr work though not to the same extent. We're not wired the same way and I'm not sure it has as much to do with money as actually getting things done, what we find boring and fun. There are some very well known painters that are like that as well, not perfect technique but great ideas and a steady output of miniatures.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by victoria View Post
    err..... I'm a professional designer/sculptor/painter and I've never found it necessary to use this technique.
    Well to be fair, your sculpts tend to be unique character minis... if you had to make unit builder troops with three arm poses but generic faces you'd probably want to cut as many corners as you could too

    I never did understand how a bona fide "texture" stamp was very useful for a mini... how do you get the texture around the body parts etc? For bases I can totally see it - who wants to sculpt cobblestones or tread plate five times?

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dblood View Post
    So did the Rackham sculptors do all their filigree on the confrontation figures using press molds? How about any GW sculptors? Werner Klocke on his Freebooter figs? Which professional sculptors actually use that type of press-molding? I know, it must be Jacques Alexandre Gillois that Scibor borrowed that technique from, or maybe it was Aragorn Marks.
    As I understand, most sculpted using polymer clay and milliput, as a result, the filigree was made using very thin strands
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    Whatever does the trick, it's not like he's tried to hide it or anything.

    Press molding is very common, 3D printing the mold first is not. If i want to do similar bolts for example I would not do each separately but make a quick mold and save a lot of time. The same if I want a particular little sculpted detail looking the same, say some kind of insignia for an army. The filigree on armor plates like he does it isn't very common on sculpts in the first place, but would I do it I'd rather do it his way if I'm doing more then one.

    The issue with Scibors sculpts are that they haven't got a great finish, often there are sloppy details. For armies it doesn't matter that much but for individual minis it is frustrating and takes a part of joy out of painting them. Just to be fair I have had the same experience with several other sculptors like Alex Hedström and the Perry twins lotr work though not to the same extent. We're not wired the same way and I'm not sure it has as much to do with money as actually getting things done, what we find boring and fun. There are some very well known painters that are like that as well, not perfect technique but great ideas and a steady output of miniatures.
    We're probably in agreement here but just taking a different look at the question. I think the issue of finish is directly related to the use of press molding to make flat plates with what appears to be a sharp finish, but is actually just stuck on something that may not be finished at all - like a facade. It only really works for that style of armor (big shin pads, shields or shoulder pads). Sure its great for quickly converting space marines. I have not seen any sculptors for other companies using this method.

    Anyhow, this is something people were talking about in 2007, and since the he's refined his technique and sculpts more by hand than press molding so its been a long time since I have heard about anyone "hating on" him. I just thought it was important to clarify that his technique was unique and was the source for the "hating". Actually, I don't think anyone cares anymore except the guys on Frothers.

    @ freakinacage

    I was being facetious and probably a little too sarcastic.

  14. #34

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    I think the frothers hate the press moulded facades that you and averlorn pointed out. That and the ip issues. Iirc they loved the last comedy minis he did

    Be sarcastic! I have to say it didnt come across in the text (that said im petty hung over so prolly missing a lot!). I have seen some wipe etc of theirs which is why I posted. Nice to have some insight for once!
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  15. #35

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    I understand the nature of the issue just fine, thanks. Texture stamps are common, period. Victoria may not use them, but there are thousands of others who do. Skin, leather, fur, armour plates, feathers on snakes, dinosaurs, lizards, insects and birds etc are used quite often. It's not just a technique for bases and terrain, though it does work well for brick, cobblestone, tree bark, stone, etc. Keep in mind, sculpting is used in many more areas than our "28 - 54 mm miniatures"...notice I'm saying "texture stamps", not specifically "Scibors filigree stamps"...

    Nothing is necessary. You can sculpt all the details with your fingers and finger nails if you want to be some sort of purist. Tools just make it easier. Where you draw the line seems arbitrary at times. I don't see anyone freaking out about airbrush artists using camo or snakeskin stencils...I don't understand why using a push mold is so different. I can understand someone not liking what can be done with the filigree molds, as I mentioned, much of it doesn't appeal to me personally, but I don't understand why it seems to rile up such disgust. Incomplete details on the figures and IP infringements are a related but separate issue.

    "I never did understand how a bona fide "texture" stamp was very useful for a mini... how do you get the texture around the body parts etc? For bases I can totally see it - who wants to sculpt cobblestones or tread plate five times? "

    Many are made by the person using them, so they're designed to suit the user. Generally they're either flexible enough to push into the model where it's needed OR the putty is pushed into the mold, removed carefully and placed on the model while still pliable. It's not always a viable or time saving option but it can really save a whole lot of time and anxiety on reptile/snake skin "animals" and cloaks and all kinds of things (like huge fancy shin guards and shoulder pads). That being said, I haven't seen many designed and sold for the sort of miniature scales we're talking about. So if you saw some for much larger scales (or if it was for wood or leather or something totally unrelated), that might have been the cause for confusion.

  16. #36
    Brushlicker dogfacedboy uk1's Avatar
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    Texture stamps are very useful, I find personally, that they are good for getting a good base and should not be totally relied on for the finished effect (Sculpting the stamps to start with is great fun by the way). Getting a tool in there to reshape repetitive areas a bit or get a brush and smoothing fluid to get the texture softened and looking good is pretty essential on larger pieces especially. In short they have their place, mostly a small one but thats dependant on the piece really. Extra work like all this is obviously not done on the filligree armour of scibor, they are simply produced en-masse by pressing. the comment used by the original poster to describe this work was "technically excellent", I challenge anyone to explain convincingly to me, how pressing a blob of green stuff into a mould is technically excellent. (cups ear in anticipation of response on point.....)

    dfb


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  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dblood View Post
    So did the Rackham sculptors do all their filigree on the confrontation figures using press molds? How about any GW sculptors? Werner Klocke on his Freebooter figs? Which professional sculptors actually use that type of press-molding? I know, it must be Jacques Alexandre Gillois that Scibor borrowed that technique from, or maybe it was Aragorn Marks.
    *sigh*

    I realize this is the Internet, and it's tempting to think anyone who says something you don't like or disagree with is trying to pick a fight.

    I'm not.

    I thought the OP's question was interesting and I was asking questions to clarify the responses that had been given. If, in asking, I said something factually wrong, or something you disagree with, by all means, feel free to let me know. Insulting me by going off on a snarky, factless tirade accomplishes nothing. It doesn't help convince me of your point of view and it makes me less receptive to whatever valid future points you may bring up.

    I'm starting to understand the situation, but I honestly still don't fully understand why the levels of piss and vinegar are quite as high as they are. Maybe that's just the nature of some people here and I should leave it at that, though.

  18. #38

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    The piss and vinegar comes from the earlier days when he posted a lot of auctions on here with similar conversions of Space Marines. I think the initial amazement of the details turned sour when people were disappointed with the finish of the rest of the miniature and realised he was using molded heads as well. Many minis where selling for good money and there was a notion by some that he was almost cheating people as it was very little of his own sculpting on the minis, parts looked rushed and the bits that looked really good were molded. The IP thing just made it worse. Many here really value the workmanship of the hobby, I am one of them.

    That attitude has since lessened when more of his own sculpts came out, and he has won back many with sometimes quirky sculpts often with dynamic posing and good lines. But some people have a long memory and tend not to forget.
    Last edited by Avelorn; 11-05-2011 at 09:57 PM.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    That attitude has since lessened when more of his own sculpts came out, and he has won back many with sometimes quirky sculpts often with dynamic posing and good lines. But some people have a long memory and tend not to forget.
    And you STILL see lots and lots of the same faces used over and over again. They have various hairstyles and facial hair added, but it's the same old faces underneath. That being said, why fuss over it? If you don't like them, don't buy them. I rather froth over all the good stuff out there, than shake my fist and gnash my teeth over the bad stuff.
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  20. #40
    Superfreak!!! Torn blue sky's Avatar
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    *huff* *puff* Sorry i'm late, I brought my tortch and pitchfork, but I need a light. Ok lets do this, who are we burning tonight? I like a good burning ou....Ah Scibor again.
    I was hoping it was GW =( I brought my Guy Fawkes mask and everything .
    I have a cunning plan...So cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it a Weasel...

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