Crossing the line, miniatures wise...

[supervike]

I spotted this from a link on Lead Adventure forum.

It sparked an interesting debate. We've had the debate before, but it's a good one.

Can a miniature cross the line?

http://www.kudargames.com/en/pokaz/1..._6_figure.html

I'd not have any use for the figures but I'm certainly not offended by it. On the other hand, I don't jump up and down and say 'cool' when I see it either. It's not the greatest sculpt, but the act it depicts is disgusting...but what say you?

[PegaZus]

Oh, that's absolutely horrible. I mean, how could one put that out there and really expect people to buy it?

That horse's knees are all screwed up! I mean seriously, WTF? Scroll down! It looks like it'll break a leg the minute any weight is put on it at all!

As for the mini you were trying to highlight, it's really, really mild IMO. I did like the "not for children under 36 months" caveat they put in. But the mini was pretty boring.

[Avelorn]

I don't think that this is mild as it's depicting an actual scene of torture from Abu Ghraib as depicted by the well known photo. So this is portraying two people out of which at least one is probably alive.

http://edition.presstv.ir/detail/149674.html

I strongly dislike this mini and for me it definitely crosses the line as it is deliberately very hurtful and cruel towards living people, ie relatives and such. If I could see any sort of subtext of disapproving I'd be more forgiving but I just don't see it here. However that on my part does not mean censorship per se, but it does mean that I strongly distance myself from the subject and would advice anyone to not buy the mini and boycott the company.

[Dragonsreach]

We've had the debate before, but it's a good one.

Can a miniature cross the line?

Depends on the line you are drawing.
So lets start with the easy one; SEX .
Miniatures depicting sexual acts don't have a place in my world, nor do Sexually Explict miniatures. There are manufacturers pandering to this "Brown paper wrapping" market, but to me people buying them fall into the catogory of Real Sad Losers.
Miniatures depicting nudity without being sexually indicative are totally different in that they depict human architecture, which is a pretty amazing design in either flavour.
Miniatures which are naked such as the Foundry Berserkers or the Warlord Berserkers depict men who were reported to fight "Sky Clad" so no problem there.

So on to VIOLENCE:
Most of the miniatures posted on this site are violent, by either action or implication. Why?, because the vast majority of our hobby is generated from Wargames where simulated violence IS the intent. Even a good old fashioned Historical Napoleonic figure is still depicting a fighting man, despite the decorative uniform. Its very rare to find a figure which has NO connection to any form of violent activity, you can play "six degrees of seperation" with figures and see what you come up with.

As to the mini in the link well that angers me on a couple of levels, One that is attempting to capitalise on deliberate torment of one human by another, Two that it attempts to trivualise something completely reprehensible into something people outside of the hobby often see as Toys.

Just my thoughts.

[10 ball]

A space marine killing a Genestealer is obviously fictional - as is Tom and Jerry chopping each other up.

This mini in the link is based on real life events and circumstances and all that's bad in life. I paint minis to get away from real life.

[BPI]

If you're going to manufacture a piece as provocative (deliberately offensive) as this, presumably the intention is advertising through notoriety. Why then not employ a decent painter for the studio photos? Lazy, half-assed crap like the presentation here just compounds the offense.

I wasn't particularly impressed by Brother Vinni's recent Ukranian Slavegirl either...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum...st/428980.page

...Dakka link as the Tymoshenko connection is basicly explained.

This hobby is my escape from the horrors of the real world, I don't want this kind of crap dragging me back to reality

Of course sculptors have their own politics and bigotries but if they're going to be thrust in front of an audience they need to keep in mind that a proportion of viewers are going to swear off that brand/artists work for life. Some things are better kept behind closed doors.

Cheers, B.

[freakinacage]

That model offends me. Simply because it is so shit. Doesn't really serve a purpose. I'm pretty anaesthatised to the subject matter and it's certainly lost any real kick because of the turd style sculpting and dulux paint job

[ischa]

even if the mini was well made i wouldnt touch it. simply because i know pf soo many people in this hobby that think these kind of things are "cool" or "funny". nakedness isnt a problem to me, as long as it is stylish and decent. i adore painting naked minis, simply because the naked human body is second to none when it comes to giving me a challenge, allmost nothing is harder than to achieve a perfect smooth skintone all over a mini.

[supervike]

Excellent points all.

It's an interesting topic. I'm not sure why someone would choose to sculpt that, and I'm not really willing to venture a guess. As an artistic endeavor, it seems to have more gravity, but as a toy that is meant to be cast for war games, it cheapens the act.

But again, i'm not offended by it, but I'd have no urge to buy or even paint it.

[PegaZus]

I don't think that this is mild as it's depicting an actual scene of torture from Abu Ghraib as depicted by the well known photo.

I didn't even see that connection. I just thought it was some stupid S&M scene.

[laurence]

Just seems like crappy sculpting and a pretty boring theme/concept. Certainly nothing I'd want to purchase, let alone spend precious mini-painting time plonking paint on. However, having said that, Supervike has raised a very interesting topic. Can mini-sculpts cross the line? And at what point do you find yourself getting offended? Very subjective subject. Hehe ~ I remember the (I won't mention mini-artists' names) baby mini, religious painted GW mini and the rape scene diorama that offended so many. For me this was art. Art should have no boundaries! Fetishminis.com ~ bring it on. I don't care! I just won't buy it. Space Marines, and cool fantasy Middle Earth style mini-scuplts are what I love to buy and very sporadically paint. Without boring you guys/gals any further with my Sat night CMoN quick reply, I'd just like to say ~ "I love you guys/gals"!

[ischa]

You have a point laurence. Even though that wasnt perhaps what you said, your postmade me notice something in my way of thinking about this. It seems I´m being more accepting of a controversial theme or mini if it´s well made. For example mauganra's concentration camp piece had my eyes filled with tears, probably partly because I´ve been in contact with parts of the local jewish community, and I have relatives that survived the camps, this piece to me was really artful and emotional. The mini posted in the first post, however, wasnt artful nor well made, it felt like a mini that wasnt made for those kind of purposes, but rather novelty reasons, which makes it a bit disgusting to me. In no way did it evoke those emotions in me, and I cant imagine it doing to anyone else either. Also this wasnt a display type miniature, but a toy, or gaming mini, which is just distasteful. Obviously, the mini wouldnt have bothered me at all without having seen the pic its based on.

[squidders]

For me, the quality of the sculpting or painting isn't the issue... I doubt the sculptor woke up that morning and thought "I'll sculpt a really sh*t mini today" - it's probably as good as they can do and fair play for that. I give equal credit to people with less talent if they give their all.

What bothers me is not that someone made a mini of something that is sickening and abhorrent but that people are complaining about the mini and not that a human did this to another human in the first place.

The photograph of the event is journalism and was no-doubt published to cause sensation and disgust so that the author could make a change in the world as well as lining their pocket.

Another similar photo taken for journalism is the one of Thich Quang Duc on fire that has since been used by, among other things, a band for an album cover. Did the recording artists in the band select this photo to cheapen it or were they, no matter how misguidedly, trying to send a message about something?

Whatever the reasons, I am glad someone made a mini of this because that caused me to learn about the actual events that took place. So because of a poorly sculpted and painted mini, I know something about the world that I did not before.

Some people will shout “Boycott” at the drop of a hat, just as some people will get offended about another person not sharing their viewpoint – That is their choice and I reserve no judgement.

In summary, I think the mini is terrible, it is a poor sculpt and I doubt that the best painters in the world could make it look like a good mini. The subject is one of a person hurting another which is ghastly but I know that goes on in the world. Neither would cause me to hate the sculptor or anyone else in the workflow of bringing the mini to market.

This: http://www.fighting15sshop.co.uk/100...-set-348-p.asp is a scene involving human sacrefice… it’s Aztec though so nobody gets upset. Why, because it’s not “us” not “our civilized people” doing it, it's from another time when people were cruel and life was cheap… certainly not those jolly Americans. That’s why people are bothered I think… because the people who do this kind of thing are our friends and they think like us and we share similar interests and that means we are capable of horrible things. Not a nice thought.

Damn this is turning out to be a longer post than I thought.

Sorry about that – please don’t flame me.

[ischa]

well. the point is that the mini is something you play with, in a game. humans do this to each other all the time, but do we really want our hobby to depict these scenes on a regular basis, without consideration? the other thing is how we want these minis to look, do we want them to be tasteful scenes showing emotion or just gaming pieces with rules etc.

[squidders]

I'll get upset when Lego make it

[GreenOne]

For f*ck's sake, if you want to cross the line, at least do it well

[Bloodhowl]

Damn this is turning out to be a longer post than I thought.

Sorry about that – please don’t flame me.

Holy word count verbose-man!

Well thought out and conveyed!

[Bloodhowl]

For f*ck's sake, if you want to cross the line, at least do it well

Amen to that!

[Bloodhowl]

well. the point is that the mini is something you play with, in a game.

Not entirely true. There are plenty of minis out there not associated with a gaming system.

[Avelorn]

@Squidders: My point was that it was two actual living people out of at least one is alive who have relatives and such. I see it very similar to someone making a miniature of a rape that has occurred with the faces recognizable.

So even if the intent was the best, raising awareness or whatever (which I do doubt in this case), I think I would make a similar judgement. But it is difficult because of so many factors, I mean the image has spread so far and regretfully I have participated in that now. I do really understand your point and I do sympathize with it to an extent but I draw the line here because I think there should be a line to draw somewhere.