Somebody throw that guy off that soapbox!
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  1. #1

    Default Somebody throw that guy off that soapbox!

    Ok, here it is again. The ubiquitous ever-goin'-round complaint about prices. After the last two price increases, the (straw that really broke my back) release of an INCREDIBLY useful resource, namely the new "Digital Library," in iBook format only, and now this ridiculously expensive *new* edition 6 of the rules.... I REFUSE to buy an iPad just to take advantage of what almost certainly is a VERY useful resource from GW in the Digital Library. Why it wasn't done in an *ebook* format already available for every platform out there is an absolute travesty! Obviously, GW had Apple pay some major ca$h to be able to keep this new (and no doubt wonderful) resource totally exclusive. GW gets the big short-term bucks. Ditto Apple (well, however long it all stays iBook from the iBookstore exclusively). GW has been doing this type of thing as a company now pretty steadily ever since ... the mid 90's or so? Once all the mom & pop hobby, comic, wargame and other shops had made GW a household name by selling all those totally awesome models and figurines at 30, 40, (maybe even 45-50% discounts, depending on how much business one did with one's favorite shops), GW of course decided to squash all competition flat and make themselves pretty much the sole supplier of the products, except for the VERY few merchants that could afford to abide by all the new rules from on-high as dictated by GW back when the hammer was put down (incidentally also closing down the MANY discount 'net suppliers, and a number of other miniatures companies that were *infringing on GW's intellectual property (using a demon hammer to smash a company in Rockville MD USA, and making a devastating tactical strike on another in Canada (incidentally shutting down friends of mine that were just releasing a few new minis, one of which was Sergeant Bubba Pearson!). There is nothing wrong with a company being profitable. Unfortunately however, I started the hobby as a young up-and-coming professional making MUCH money as a software engineer using C (and awk, sed, and name-yer-shell) in a Unix environment. The wife doing pretty much the same in a mainframe environment made money a much easier-to-manage proposition back when, and GW at the beginning were no worse (even better than some) of the other mini companies out there in '88, my first introduction to the company (as Citadel, actually) back in the day. The fact that the miniatures were not only wonderful white metal figures, but boxes of plastic sprues allowing for just out-of-control control of how one's minis were going to look when done (and the boxes usually containing parts for about 36 completed figures) -- and ALL of this at totally competetive prices? WOW! I still remember my discovery of that bagged set of ROGUE TRADER, many other background, painting, and similar pamphlets and guides and such, and that wonderful somewhat flat box of Crimson Fist Space Marines with the awesome new -- and now ubiquitous -- cover art, all for about $40 that literally got me hooked on the hobby!

    Since I began tabletop wargaming with what was available at the time, mostly 25mm (1:72) fantasy or historical figures, military miniatures (well, historical also but my little clique used them for all SORTS of gaming!) such as WWI, WWII, and *modern* armor (and aircraft, etc.) in about 1:350 scale, after my first having cut my teeth on cardboard counters on a hex/oct/square/whatever map *board*, I very soon was able to do something not possible with pre-boxed games: buy only the miniatures I liked in the scales being used by my friends and I, and THEN going shopping for the rules allowing us to game those models the way we wanted! What an awesome concept, and this new development in wargaming pulled me into the hobby in a way only imagined before then! THEN! I discovered not only the wonderful boxed sets of GW plastic model minis (my favorites being Space Marines, Space Orks, and Space Dwarves), but a rulebook actually encouraging the type of gaming I'd already decided was the only way for me to go -- ROGUE TRADER actually ENCOURAGED the use of other, or scratch-built, or whatever minis struck ones fancy for game play and then supplying the rules with enough flexibility to use the existing products by the same company, but also minis from elsewhere too. *House* rules were encouraged to help bring into the game whatever the players wanted, and all seemed right with the world! My friends and I had an absolute ball playing out the *stash at the farm* scenario, and even started coming up with ideas such as using an existing massive army of lo-tek *natives* (armies of fantasy critters, monsters, berzerkers, barbs, knights, magicians, and what-have-you) on one side, and a small force of hi-tek Citadel/GW Marines/Orks/Dwarves/Elves/Whatever on the other, with the scenario being a small transport craft/courier/troopship carrying bashed-up vets bound for R&R or a small elite force, or... you get the idea. Anyway, the ship suffers some shortage or equipment problem or whatever and has to put down on the first habitable planet available for time to effect repairs, or to obtain some rare metal or crystals or ... again, you get the idea, and presto! Cool scenario! Hi-teks need to keep the ship secure from the seemingly endless numbers of lo-teks that still can get lucky using long-bows, crossbows, swords, spears, pikes, rocks, clubs, whatever, or maybe even some rudimentary firearms and even explosives and artillery! To that could be added also the need not only to keep the ship secure for X number of game turns, but also the hi-teks need to break through the enemy hordes and hold yet another perimeter in order to secure whatever rare metals, gems, crystals, whatsits and widgets are necessary FOR the repairs, then fight their way back to the ship, and help hold off the bad (or good) guys until repairs are completed or they are destroyed or marooned forever or.... GREAT FUN! Fight other hi-teks for treasure, or *capture the flag*, or whatever scenario the imagination of the players can dream up, and still have the option of using all the cool fantasy lo-tek figures to fight small numbers of very powerfully armed hi-teks for whatever scenario imagination again dictates (I always have wanted to convert a large number of GW Lizardmen into 21st century or later century or millenium tek-equipped troops to fight the more powerful (but low-numbered) 41st millenium Space Marines (or Imperial Guard)!

    Unfortunatelty, with every release of a new edition of both Warhammer AND 40K, these types of scenarios became more and more distant until by the time even 3rd edition was getting solidly emplaced it was all but impossible to continue to buy just the minis one liked (and to me, GW seemed to be, if not THE, at least one of THE best manufacturers of minis and models out there), and THEN find rules to game with them! Also, now the prices began to climb, and climb, and climb....

    Back in the day, my spousal unit and I had a much larger income granted (I was disabled after too many back injuries and surgeries in the mid-90's and have been (thank goodness) living on Social Security Disability Insurance since, although I took about a 700% decrease in pay), but it was still fairly easy for me to continue buying the minis I fancied and then find (or modify, or even create) the rules I needed to play, but GW, which I adored as the producer of just awesome minis and models and a very richly detailed world in which they could be used, slowly but surely the minis and models began to increase the price way past the point just of recouping R&D and production costs and still adding in a nice profit margin. About 15 years ago, this could have become a serious problem for me, but luckily I still had sources where I could buy my GW at great discounts (40% was still common), but those sources have started drying up over time until now, finally, I have reached a point where I am all but completely priced out of the GW game (I DID use the GW rules when playing with those who preferred them). 10 years ago, it was next-to-no-problem for me to start up a new army, or just collect the models to do so when I had the time to construct, convert and paint them. I even occasionally still ran into hobby shops that decided to stop carrying the GW product line (for reasons I don't like but won't get into) and now and again would walk into a shop and be amazed to find signs proclaiming ALL GW MUST GO -- 50% OFF! Quite a few times I luckily stumbled into a few of these situations and ended up walking out of that particular shop with whatever remained of their Space Marine and/or Imperial Guard, occasionally even Ork stock -- the WHOLE kit and kaboodle (the writing on the wall was clear and sales such as these had to be jumped on while the iron was hot).

    The point is, until just a few years ago, I could (and did) still start up a new line of Space Marines or IG or simply add (a lot!) to existing forces. Today, figuring I could use my existing collection for Tac, Assault, Dev, Terminator, and Scout squads, I decided to put together a shopping cart at GW of just the bare necessity I thought I'd need to start up a new Blood Angel army (which seemed to be much cheaper than going with the Gray Knight army I REALLY wanted). So, into this cart I put 11 items: 2 of the new Dread kits (figuring I could kitbash all three new kits and even some multiples using Dreads I already had), 2 of the new troop carrier/assault Stormravens, 2 (I wanted more for the extra bitz on the sprues, but already have the boxed set of 10 metal Death Company figures with the Chaplain), then I picked some of the new characters -- I already had the chapter master and company commander, but needed the (very cool) Death Company Chaplain Lemartes, The Sanguinor, the boxed set of the Sanguinary Guard (I really wanted 2 or more kits for all the great parts to fix up my already collected *vanilla* troops, but couldn't do it), the Sanguinary Priest and Mephiston -- I think that's 11. Anyhow, just buying those basic elements I considered absolutely necessary to take advantage of the cool new Blood Angel rules (GW's purpose, of course) would have set me back... mmm... I believe it was right around $450.00. FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY DOLLARS for 7 kits (ALL of the *soldier* kits consisting of only 5 figures per box) and 4 single figures. Lessee, that's 2 (Dreads), 2 (Stormravens), 10 Death Company troops, 5 Sanguinary Guard troops, and four more individuals. 4 *big kits*, 10 Death company, 5 Sanguinary Guard, and the other 4 individual troop models. 4 vehicles and 17 troops, and it would set me back almost $400.00 (even at the 20% off discount which is the very best available these days online). Whoa -- almost forgot! Need a Blood Angels codex and the new rules too! Just for those few basic models, it would cost me a car payment, half a month's mortgage, food for two (and not that much of that) for two weeks, including the occasional splurge on a couple of coffees and maybe some subs or a pizza on the weekends. If I were on my own, it would be not quite, but getting close to HALF MY MONTHLY INCOME! I LOVE this hobby! I LOVE GW minis (and the game), and a lot of the things available from GW. Unfortunately, it now has reached the point where I really can't take part in that hobby: I can't afford an iPad (only an iOS machine can download and read iBooks), so the *new* Digital Library is out. I can't afford close to one hundred bucks for a new rulebook, so that's out. I can't afford many of the single models any more (these used to be prices associated exclusively with the *elite* Forge World products -- oh, I can't go there anymore either because I'm not sacrificing my security by allowing ANY site to force me to allow cookies to browse the 'net!), and that *someday* on which I've been waiting for the aircraft and IG supertanks I wanted (heck, even Land Raiders are nearly $75.00 now!), well, that won't be coming around any time soon either. This last time I added two years to my White Dwarf subscription might even be the last too -- I added two years (to about the six months I already had left) so I could do that before THAT price went any higher (!), and when it does.... I almost feel now that GW is no longer looking out for, much less trying to take care of, their customers. The models and game? Awesome! Everything else? Ouch!

    You know, this could get a fella down if he (that's a genderless fella/he there) really let it get to him....

  2. #2

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    *plop*

    /10chars

  3. #3

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    You're likely to be bombarded with a chorus of "we know" with a thread such as this. Basically, yeah. I agree with you. That's why I don't buy any GW stuff anymore, even though I started 20 yeas ago, just like you, full of enthusiasm for Rogue Trader. Now, along with my friends, I spend my money on warmachine and Malifaux, and when I play 40k I do it with the minis I've had for years, or with proxies. Rarely, I'll buy a forge world mini as a treat (say, once a year). Out here in Japan, forge world stuff is cheaper that GW stuff. (seriously - check the GWJ site and do a quick currency conversion.)

    The long and the short of it is that GW have reached breaking point with their attitude to customers. When you get to the point you're at, and actually start thinking about how they're abusing your wallet, that's the point they stop caring about you. It becomes a choice for you: either continue to pay their prices, or move on to another game system.
    "Facts are the impregnable bulwark that stands between us and the insidious evil of bullsh*t." - Pikey, over on Nagoyahammer

  4. #4

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    Now that was a rant, I'm impressed, I agree with you.

  5. #5

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    True, true, I got my box of 30 beakies back when the Berlin wall was still standing, or something. Nowadays if I want to paint GW minis I get them second hand and strip them, although the high rrp keeps the ebay prices artificially high.

    I played 40k a few times under 5th edition, it's no fun compared to 1st and 2nd edition, the rule set just seems to be a way of selling more minis. As far as wargaming rulesets go, GW rules are antiquated and clunky, so what if they choose to repackage them in a massively expensive rulebook every five years, i can see through their ruse!!

  6. #6

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    Forget the new rules, and the new minis (in terms of an army). Playing the way you did with the Rogue trader is much more enjoyable than the way the game plays now. At least for me. If you really want to get into a newer system for a reasonable price, check out the aforementioned Warmachine/Hordes or Malifaux. A lot smaller mini count and in some cases the rules are free.
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  7. #7

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    Cripes that's quite a monumental post!

    I've read similar (though nothing quite as comprehensive) on other forums. The general consensus why GW went down the iPad route is because it currently has all of the DRM protection already built in place where as other formats do not have the same level security. It is strongly believed that other formats will appear, but I seriously doubt they will just produce an ebook format that can be passed around. I don't have an iPad (nor have any burning urge to have one) but in this instance I can see why they've gone down this route initially.

    I also agree on the whole cost aspect. Many "veterans" no longer have the disposable income they used to, so we suffer every time there is a price rise. Sadly a large portion of the target audience don't have the same restriction on the money they spend so GW can justify the price rises on a business footing as people will pay them. I try to put aside £20 a month into a "hobby fund" (doesn't always happen especially at Christmas) and any Quidco cashback and eBay sales goes into the same pot. However if you ever go into a store, its not uncommon to see somebody in their teens (and younger) spending the amount I put aside in a year in one visit.

  8. #8

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    Lol. Well, it all boils down to that it's no longer a "gaming" company, it is now JUST a big business. Quick money, no care for return customers, no care for client satisfaction outside of them making purchases. Big fancy exec's looking to get their bonus this quarter. Zero care for the client or the hobby and even less care they'll have tomorrow.

    As for the digital thing, they've never been too good with it. I mean, remember their army builder? What a pos...in two parts...two big steaming...

  9. #9

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    Yep yep and yep

    If you like the epub format what about Calibre it converts into what ever from whatever format you like.

    Other than that screw GW their a buch of suits after your wallet contents driven by pension group investors who want an ever increasing share price hence ever increasing reatil price hikes.

    Second hand is my motto God bless eBay and Dettol for stripping paint(pinefresh I believe is the brand name in America).
    Victis hostibus tuis tibi rapitur videre et audire fletum mulierum. (or as near as google can do it!)
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  10. #10

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    I am a beakie starter guy as well. You are paying for the wicked background story lol? The only cool thing I have left to buy stuff is that there is a yearly auction at my local GW store that gives ayou crack at cheap olderstuff and display things. There are boxed sets that come out that spawn cheap bits for us old vets as well. Other than that I hang on to my old junk too with the odd repaint...
    H

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrystanGST View Post
    Forget the new rules, and the new minis (in terms of an army). Playing the way you did with the Rogue trader is much more enjoyable than the way the game plays now. At least for me. If you really want to get into a newer system for a reasonable price, check out the aforementioned Warmachine/Hordes or Malifaux. A lot smaller mini count and in some cases the rules are free.
    I agree with you. Rouge Trader was fantastic compared to now.

  12. #12

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    Strong first post...

    You still have your rogue trader or second edition books? Got minis? Game on.

    "a 700% decrease in pay" Not really how percentages work
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  13. #13

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    I did some math and converted the original RTB-01 boxed set price of 9.99 GB to 1988 USD (17.08) and then estimated inflation to get a price of $33.40 USD. Which means a 1988 marine was $1.11 in today's dollars. Where as a current marine is $3.73 (using tactical squad boxed set as comparison). So that is a x3.35 increase. So now you can decided if the models with all their new detail and posing are x3 better or not.

    As for me, I have never really gotten mad at GW for raising prices. I have enjoyed their games. I have enjoyed their miniatures. And if they raise the prices...I just buy fewer minis. I do think the way they go about it is real clumsy, most companies raise prices they just do it more stealthy. Now of course I am not a hard core tournamentor, so I might not be stuck in the mental monopoly that traps some players. But still, when it comes down to it, GW's prices are not something you have to pay.
    Last edited by iron_weasel; 07-30-2012 at 09:31 PM. Reason: just some typos

  14. #14

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    I just moved from Canada to New Zealand (about 2 years ago) and I am starting to get back into my old hobby.

    I used to think that the prices for GW mini's were a bit high in Canada, but nothing unbearable. I was just looking at prices here in NZ for minis and its insane, I did the conversion into Canadian dollars (so I could get a better idea of the price), a tactical marine squad is 73 NZD or 60$ CDN. It's 40$ in Canada, so the price increased by 20 bucks.

    Of course shipping is a factor, but everything comes over from Australia, a major hub, I can get a plane ticket to AUS for 80-120 bucks, so I doubt the price of shipping would warrant a 20 dollar increase, PER box (remember bulk shipping saves you money).

    It's rather steep, and my wee little salamander army of 2 dreads, one squad and Vulkan, is going to be every lonely for a long time.

    These prices are rather insane for a *again* student.

  15. #15

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    I started in this hobby back in 2004 and due to my less that amazing income it's always been expensive to me, but I find that the enjoyment I get from it justifies the price I pay for my models. Granted watching prices go up and, in some cases, the model count per box go down, sucks; the thing that really pisses me off is this new attitude at the corporate level. Once upon a time I could go down to my local GW flat broke and just hangout with other players, meet new people, play a game and have fun.

    Now the policy is " Buy product or get the F**k out". It's destroyed the community that we've spent years building. I understand that it's a retail business, but last time I checked you need people in the store to sell product and compared to before our GW is a ghost town most days.

    I think that's the real problem, more so than price increases.

  16. #16

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    Try being a stock holder. Gw Blames the USA for low sales and crap.

  17. #17

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    the contents of the rant asides (agreed with by the by), its gotta be the longest single post i've ever seen on a thread, in fact im going to try and read a bit each night before i go to bed, another good title for the next rant should be "war and peace" lol. No offence intended im glad you got that off your chest bottling that up couldnt be good for a body.
    LAAARRFF, I SPLIT MY SIDES!!

    cassar [demigod] |ˈdemēˌgäd|
    noun ( fem. demigoddess |ˈdemēˌgädis| )
    a being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.
    • a person who is greatly admired or feared.
    ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: translating Latin semideus .

    on a serious note, i do commissions, no really i do, ask and ye shall receive


  18. #18
    Senior Member RayzrYR's Avatar
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    I got into GW in the early 90's, my early teens. Early on I pretty much picked the armies I liked and have stuck with them. I have picked up bits and pieces for other GW armies now and then, but always came back to my 2 favourite armies. Prices rises, and the encroachment of real life (kids, mortgage) on my time and funds means that
    I really have to be picky about purchases now. They have to at least be useable as proxies, as well as serve in their intended role. I'm with Bubba, the setting and history, the IP of GW is great. I dont mind saying I love it. But the prices now... I did buy Dark Vengeance, the new box set. I wouldnt have cared a skaven's arse for it, but that they packed in Dark Angels instead of Generic Marines chapter. Damn them. But after reading the post above, I went and did a price comparison. US and Australian dollars are about 1 for 1 right now. Awesome for me wanting to buy minis from the US. But GWUS lists Dark Vengeance at $107 for the limited edition. I just paid $180 (with free postage) from GWOZ.
    The fact is GW is after the disposable income market. They already have ipads. Or they'll get one from gran for christmas or whatever. The rest of us either have to just suck it up, or get on and find something else to do with our time. Or use proxies. I'm liking that idea...

  19. #19

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    I feel the same way about GW that I feel about D&D, want to play other games... but hard to find players for the.

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilEgg View Post
    I feel the same way about GW that I feel about D&D, want to play other games... but hard to find players for the.
    Speaking as someone who tried to get a warmachine group going, I agree.

    That said, I DO enjoy 40K as well, and will likely keep playing.

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