Cars and movement
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Thread: Cars and movement

  1. #1

    Default Cars and movement

    I have a few questions about cars and movement. First, it states that cars can move one or two spaces, and that this counts as an action, but is not subject to movement restrictions. Okay, that's clear enough.
    However, does this count as one of the player's actions during his activation? If so, can a car potentially move up to 6 spaces if a character with 3 actions is driving it?

    It states in the rules that it takes 1 action to switch seats in a car. Is this for the active player only, and not for the player with whom the active player is switching seats? This would keep it consistent with the cost of swapping gear, as this only costs an action for one of the two players involved in the swap.

    Assuming there are four players in the same car, and each has 3 actions, could the driver use his first 2 actions to move the car up to two spaces per action, then use his third action to swap seats with the second player? Could the second player also move the car twice, and use his third action to swap out with the next player, and so on? If so, a single car could potentially move up to 16 spaces given the conditions listed, and more if the players have more actions, as happens later in the game.

    The short version of the question is really "How many times during a single turn may a car move?"

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by njtanker View Post
    I have a few questions about cars and movement. First, it states that cars can move one or two spaces, and that this counts as an action, but is not subject to movement restrictions. Okay, that's clear enough.
    However, does this count as one of the player's actions during his activation? If so, can a car potentially move up to 6 spaces if a character with 3 actions is driving it?
    Yes, and Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by njtanker View Post
    It states in the rules that it takes 1 action to switch seats in a car. Is this for the active player only, and not for the player with whom the active player is switching seats? This would keep it consistent with the cost of swapping gear, as this only costs an action for one of the two players involved in the swap.
    That's how I'd play it.

    Quote Originally Posted by njtanker View Post
    Assuming there are four players in the same car, and each has 3 actions, could the driver use his first 2 actions to move the car up to two spaces per action, then use his third action to swap seats with the second player? Could the second player also move the car twice, and use his third action to swap out with the next player, and so on? If so, a single car could potentially move up to 16 spaces given the conditions listed, and more if the players have more actions, as happens later in the game.
    Yes, and Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by njtanker View Post
    The short version of the question is really "How many times during a single turn may a car move?"
    0 to 8 moves, of 1 or 2 zones per move, assuming 4 actors in the car, each with 3 actions. 0 to 12 moves if 4 actors with 4 actions each.
    In memoriam - the Tearful 107, May 6th 2012

    (banner by Joshua "Cornbread" Harris (AKA: Skittlebrau))

  3. #3

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    Hm, that seems odd. I realize there is nothing in the rules to indicate a different interpretation, but it makes cars very powerful: they are "slippery", never run out of gas, can run down walkers and runners with impunity, and are potentially very fast.

    In a scenario like #3 "The 24 hrs Race of Zombicity", you can load everyone into a car, race in circles around the middle of the board running over zombies each turn as they spawn, and be assured of victory in short order.

  4. #4

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    Agreed. Cars are more than a little over powered. Which kind of makes sense, but makes the game less interesting in scenarios that let you drive them. In general, I think the rules for them are a little wonky, regardless. I'll just skip on some of those scenarios for a while, I think.
    Dood!

  5. #5

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    You can CHANGE seats in a car for one Action, not SWAP seats, it's a big difference. The driver has to spend an Action to vacate the driver's seat, then the next Survivor needs to spend an Action to change into the driver's seat, and so on. So if you're rotating Survivors in the driver's seat, pretty much everybody is wasting a couple of Actions per turn. And also, you must always have a vacant seat in the car in order to perform these maneuvers, which means only 3 people in the car. I think this is essential do balance the effectiveness of cars a bit.
    Last edited by Loophole Master; 09-14-2012 at 10:12 AM.

  6. #6

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    Hmmm... interesting idea, Loophole. I certainly didn't read it that way, but can see where you're coming from, and it will help mitigate cars very slightly. However, honestly, just having one person driving around is pretty effective as is, so my opinion on them will stay the same.
    Dood!

  7. #7

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    Cars are certainly overpowered, but too good of a concept to scrap completely. House rules are necessary. Here's a few modest tweaks we've made:

    1. There is no swapping seats, a survivor may only occupy an empty drivers' seat
    2. A car can not run over an abomination or a fatty. If the car enters a square with an abomination or a fatty, it comes to a stop, and can not be driven again until the square is cleared of fatties and abominations.
    3. Finally, there is no "doubling" on zombie squares. You roll when you exit a zone only if you did not enter it on the same turn. We still allow people to drive back and forth through a zombie hoard, but this halves the effective amount of die rolls generated, which has seemingly eliminated the ability to wipe out a massive hoard in a round.
    4. Cars can not pass other cars on the street. One car per zone.

    We've toyed with other concepts, such as needing gas to use the car, using actions to turn cars around, etc., but it seems to be a bit over-bearing. It's okay if cars are overpowered, provided scenarios can prop up that forces survivors out of the cars, and that cars aren't so effective they can keep a zombie spawn completely off the board by themselves.

  8. #8

    Default

    Talm's is a bit too restrictive, but paying an action to pass another car sounds like a decent idea.
    In memoriam - the Tearful 107, May 6th 2012

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Talm View Post
    1. There is no swapping seats, a survivor may only occupy an empty drivers' seat
    That's not a house rule, that's the official rule.

  10. #10

    Default

    I'm not sure I would call that an official rule, Loophole. While swapping and changing aren't equal, English is flexible enough to allow either variant meaning. I think I'll be going with that, regardless, however. And the rest of the rules seem perfectly fair to me. The one car per zone is easy enough for survivors to get around (just drive up to the next car, have someone else jump out and drive that somewhere out of the way, and it's all good) and fatties stopping the car seem reasonable. I mean, you can't hurt them with it already! Even with all of that, however, it wouldn't be too hard to abuse cars. I'm thinking of just not making cars usable unless necessary, and then only at the end (for example, only driving the cars in The Escape (06) once they are full and you are, well, escaping. That scenario has been touted as a bit on the easy side normally, so wouldn't that help things out? Or at least make it more interesting, if not helpful specifically...
    Dood!

  11. #11

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    Loophole- Claiming that the "no swapping" house rule is official presumes quite a lot. In fact, if cues are to be taken from elsewhere in the rules, the rules regarding inventory and trading indicate the opposite. In that case, both Survivors get to rearrange their inventory, and only the active Survivor requires an action to do so. I see no reason to assume it is any different with changing or swapping seats in cars. The language itself doesn't indicate any particular interpretation.

    In any event, I think a reasonable way to "house rule" it would be to say that you can drive and swap out, or swap in and drive, but not swap both in and out of the driver's seat in the same turn. This would allow for a maximum of two survivors to drive the car each turn. The first drives, then swaps out with the second, who swaps in for free, but may not swap out again in the same turn.

    Talm- Regarding your house rule #3, that one actually does appear to be an official rule. The rules state that you roll a die for each miniature in any zone the car "leaves, moves through or reaches". The only interpretation for "moves through" I can think of in this case is that a car enters and leaves a zone in the same turn, "moving through" it. This would result in 1 die being rolled for each mini in the square, not one for entering, then a second for leaving.

    The only thing about cars I would consider to be overpowered is the number of spaces they can move in a single turn. By either limiting the number of times a car can be moved in a single turn, or limiting the number of Survivors who can move it in a single turn, this can be fixed. Hopefully this will be addressed in a FAQ.

  12. #12

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    In the case of cards, the rules pretty clearly use the word "exchange". This wording leaves no doubt that it's a two-way action. When dealing with the car, they use the word "change", not "swap" nor "exchange" nor "trade" or anything like that. Why come up with a house rule, when the straightforward interpretation of the official rules solve the problem?

  13. #13

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    The only thing the rulebook states is "Changing seats in a car costs an action". That's it. Not a word more. There is nothing in that statement that indicates if this involves one occupied seat and one empty seat, or two occupied seats. There is simply not enough information available to definitively state what the author's intentions were in this case.
    As long as you've found an interpretation that works for you, that's all that really matters. I'm happy to discuss interpretations, but I won't waste any more time arguing about it. Enjoy the game!

  14. #14

    Default

    Sure, I agree that the rules are vague in this point. I'm not saying that the rules CLEARLY state the interpretation I'm proposing, only that your interpretation is a bigger stretch from what's actually written in the book.

    As and as far as I know, we're not arguing, just discussing rules.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by njtanker View Post
    Loophole- Claiming that the "no swapping" house rule is official presumes quite a lot. In fact, if cues are to be taken from elsewhere in the rules, the rules regarding inventory and trading indicate the opposite. In that case, both Survivors get to rearrange their inventory, and only the active Survivor requires an action to do so. I see no reason to assume it is any different with changing or swapping seats in cars. The language itself doesn't indicate any particular interpretation.

    In any event, I think a reasonable way to "house rule" it would be to say that you can drive and swap out, or swap in and drive, but not swap both in and out of the driver's seat in the same turn. This would allow for a maximum of two survivors to drive the car each turn. The first drives, then swaps out with the second, who swaps in for free, but may not swap out again in the same turn.

    Talm- Regarding your house rule #3, that one actually does appear to be an official rule. The rules state that you roll a die for each miniature in any zone the car "leaves, moves through or reaches". The only interpretation for "moves through" I can think of in this case is that a car enters and leaves a zone in the same turn, "moving through" it. This would result in 1 die being rolled for each mini in the square, not one for entering, then a second for leaving.

    The only thing about cars I would consider to be overpowered is the number of spaces they can move in a single turn. By either limiting the number of times a car can be moved in a single turn, or limiting the number of Survivors who can move it in a single turn, this can be fixed. Hopefully this will be addressed in a FAQ.
    At this point we are simply arguing rule interpretation. The rule book is pretty well done for the most part, with great examples which help explain the particulars, but cars as a whole seemed like a last minute addition. Everything is fairly vague, and it's part of the reason why cars need to be tweaked a bit to be game effective.

    The double-roll rule I was taking away accounts for a very specific situation.

    Consider a situation where a survivor is in the driver's seat of a car. For their first action, they drive from zone 1 to zone 3. Since they are leaving zone 1, they roll die for zombie kills. As they drive through zone 2, they again roll for hits. As they enter zone three to finish action one, they roll die for zone 3. Let's say that survivor decides to drive to zone 5 for their second action. According to the rule book, they would again roll for zone 3 as they exit it, roll for zone 4 as they drive through, and zone 5 as they enter. We take away that second roll in zone 3. That's all the above listed rule is taking away. It's particularly good at limiting the strength of driving back and forth to kill zombies en masse. It doesn't take the option away from the survivor, but it does curb the effectiveness.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Niranth's Avatar
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    One thing that limits the effectiveness of driving out of a zone with zombies is that it takes an action per zombie in addition to the action to move the car. You've gotta hope you hit all of your rolls if you are think you will roll back. At only 50% chance of a damage, a crowd of six zombies will likely stall the car out. If you can stop on an open zone and the reverse, it is a great way to run up XP.
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  17. #17

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    While I agree that the rules are not tightly written enough to confirm the rules ine way or another.

    I prefer to think of cars differently to characters inventory (as no where does it say they work in a similar way) and take into account the rule for getting into a car (ie must choose an empty seat), when dealing with the action "changing seats".

    After all its hardly going to be easy swapping seats with another survivor when carrying multiple weapons or items... and we all know what a bad idea it is to have a running chainsaw, in a moving vehicle, when fighting off a zombie hoard!

    Cheers

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niranth View Post
    One thing that limits the effectiveness of driving out of a zone with zombies is that it takes an action per zombie in addition to the action to move the car. You've gotta hope you hit all of your rolls if you are think you will roll back. At only 50% chance of a damage, a crowd of six zombies will likely stall the car out. If you can stop on an open zone and the reverse, it is a great way to run up XP.
    Actually, the rules explicitly state that you don't have to pay an extra action per zombie, since moving the car is not a move action. Now adding something like that would be another way to make cars significantly less powerful...
    Dood!

  19. #19
    Senior Member Niranth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droganis View Post
    Actually, the rules explicitly state that you don't have to pay an extra action per zombie, since moving the car is not a move action. Now adding something like that would be another way to make cars significantly less powerful...
    That's what happens when you reread the rules in the middle of a game. Thanks Droganis for pointing that out! But it really did make the car less useful. I lost the car (and Phil). Then on the next draw, I pulled a manhole card and then two extra turn cards. I went from five survivors to two, and they each had a wound. Maybe playing correctly would make my scenario less difficult!
    Member of the Kathryn Loch painting fanclub

  20. #20

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    I don't like the cars. Waaaay too over powered. I would like them to block Line of Sight, and be able to block the streets off. It would be a good tactic and a good obstalce in some cases.

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