Citadel Finecast...? Not so much... - Page 2
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Thread: Citadel Finecast...? Not so much...

  1. #21

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    I'm pretty sure it's because they are using the same, or very similar, technique to casting white metal meaning that they are probably using a technique not entirely suitable for the material.

    Another thing is how the GW company seem to be structured at the moment. Seems like few people want to bite the sour apple and tell negative stuff upwards in risk of not getting promoted. I'm not even sure that it is clear to everyone at GW how bad the quality of finecast is. "It's great - I read it in White Dwarf!" They have not taken a huge problem seriously - if you want to make money you take problems with your products seriously.

    EDIT:

    GW get a lot of flack, but their return policy has always been good.
    Last edited by Avelorn; 12-11-2012 at 02:15 PM.

  2. #22

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    Well that is a solution, and a short term viable one, for a problem thar should not exist.

    And a company that doesnt like it employees being critical about the company, is a company i am happy i am not working for.
    The odds of succesfully finishing this miniature is 3720:1





  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by marjedi View Post
    Well that is a solution, and a short term viable one, for a problem thar should not exist.

    And a company that doesnt like it employees being critical about the company, is a company i am happy i am not working for.
    Not sure there are many companies that encourage public criticism from within...
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by freakinacage View Post
    Not sure there are many companies that encourage public criticism from within...
    Well, yes. I get the idea "Dilbert" is only a slight exaggeration. But one would think a sensible company would welcome clear information about serious flaws with a product and not punish employees for pointing them out. And maybe recall the defective products. And issue a reassuring public statement. Not just quietly take back the defective products for replacement until forced to say and do something publicly.

    ...

    Never mind. I just thought of the baby furniture industry.

    But still, why is GW so silent on this? Is Finecast the pet project of the company president's son or something?

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    The material is not bad, I find it to be great to work with (except for very thin swords that flexes a bit when you paint - don't like that).
    Well IMB that does make the material bad, i.e. not suitable for purpose, and it's not like this is the only weakness of the stuff.

    If the bendy-weapon thing were its only failing, with casting issues rare or nearly absent, I'd still not be in favour of it for two key reasons: mould engineering and price. We need to consistently remind ourselves what it should be directly compared to - quality 'traditional' resin, cast conscientiously.

    Einion

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Einion View Post
    Well IMB that does make the material bad, i.e. not suitable for purpose, and it's not like this is the only weakness of the stuff.

    If the bendy-weapon thing were its only failing, with casting issues rare or nearly absent, I'd still not be in favour of it for two key reasons: mould engineering and price. We need to consistently remind ourselves what it should be directly compared to - quality 'traditional' resin, cast conscientiously.

    Einion
    Have you tried it?

    You make it sound a bit like traditional resin and white metal don't have downsides. If it wasn't superior to resin, plastic and white metal in some aspects I wouldn't consider it. It carries the same detail level as traditional resin but isn't that brittle (and doesn't make me short of breath if I sand it without a breathing mask). The Ilyad mini I just cleaned up had its ankle snapped... and it's a minotaur! "Finecast" is also easy to clean up and extremely easy to convert. The only downside I myself have found so far working with the material is the bendy weapons thing.

    It's very easy to jump on a bandwagon and read every rant as a fact. The most worrying thing I read about the compound was how it reacted to heat. Now one summer later it seem to be clear that it isn't a very large issue. I heard nobody here who had a problem. Traditional resin can also bend from heat.

    If it is an inherent - not redeemable - aspect of the material that it is near impossible to cast. Then it is indeed not fit for that purpose. My not entirely uninformed guess is that this issue is rather a question of the procedure GW uses. As for the bendy weapons, maybe they should cast that in white metal or better just make a plastic sprue that they later can chop up and put into the blister. Thin resin weapons are nightmare as well.

    Anyway. Judging from the Dark elf sorceress I'm painting right now the future might be plastics. I hate cleaning plastics but otherwise there's less and less of a downside to it. 3D printing will also come in big time now.
    Last edited by Avelorn; 12-11-2012 at 07:19 PM.

  7. #27

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    I don't mind the material. I tried cleaning up the mini a bit and it was relatively easy to cut and shave, which is a plus considering there was a decent amount to clean up. It however is a bit concerning due to it's softness as you need to pay extra attention with what you are cutting and must make sure you're using fresh blades. You don't want to go at it with a dull blade unless you feel like risking a good couple gouges... even though they would fit right in with the rest. I think what's most interesting to me is how they decided to release this product, the flaws are glaringly obvious. Although I'm sure when they were making test runs there was a lot more care put in to making them. I can't imagine they could have gotten as excited as they were over releasing grossly miscast mini's.

    I have a nice heap of Forge World Chaos Dwarves and they are cast quite nicely. There are a few air holes on some but they are relatively easy to fix, which is ok in my opinion. This is what I was expecting when I first came to terms with what Finecast is. But when you have warped figures and entire chunks of faces and gear missing, that's just a no-no. It should not happen, especially at the price they charge. They need to slow down their production and pay more attention to carefully producing this product line. I somehow doubt that them putting out more in the terms of bulk is worth it when it's damaging their reputation, putting people off buying further products and generally having to burn through their bulk trying to replace rubbish casts with those rare "acceptable" casts.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    Have you tried it?
    Wouldn't go near it with a barge pole*.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    You make it sound a bit like traditional resin and white metal don't have downsides.
    Eh? I implied nothing of the sort. I said exactly what I meant. Why do you think I referred to quality 'traditional' resin, cast conscientiously specifically? Everyone here should be more than aware of what a nightmare regular resin can be if done poorly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    It's very easy to jump on a bandwagon and read every rant as a fact.
    Yes it is. And thank you so much for implying that's what I've done

    *And before you leap at the chance to go "Oh well there you go then." that does not mean I haven't looked at castings... that should be read as studied castings, it's not like I'm not as much of a detail-freak as most miniaturists and being myopic my close vision is great. In the flesh I've never seen a flawless one.

    Never.

    That alone is 'cause for concern' (more than a little charitable) but taken as a whole, forgedaboudit.

    Einion

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    It carries the same detail level as traditional resin but isn't that brittle (and doesn't make me short of breath if I sand it without a breathing mask). The Ilyad mini I just cleaned up had its ankle snapped... and it's a minotaur! "Finecast" is also easy to clean up and extremely easy to convert. The only downside I myself have found so far working with the material is the bendy weapons thing.
    First off, always wear a mask. Doesn't matter what the dust is, dust can cause pneumoconiosis, it's just that certain resins are even more toxic/carcinogenic.

    As for bendy or snappy, i'd go for the snappy any day. Although the basic cleanup for finecrap is awesome as it's so soft, having a model that will bend in a warm room makes it unusable imo. At least with brittle stuff you can be careful
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  10. #30

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    Avalon has good points and a lot of other people are making wild assumptions about the mechanics of it all. You have to remember there are two aspects to making resin miniatures, the mould making and the casting and if one is done wrong it messes up the whole system... The problem might not be so much to do with the method but how its done later down the line.

  11. #31

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    Again as I mentioned, and even put in italics, I am speaking of the material here and I will again the viewpoint that the material has advantages and I even claim that it is my favourite material to work with so far if it wasn't for the casting issues. Compared to traditional resin and plastics (nowadays) it is a close call though but I much prefer it to white metal.

    You claimed in the previous post that the finecast material was not suitable for casting because of the bendy weapons thing and implied other, unmentioned, flaws. If you at the same time claim that white metal and resin are suitable materials for casting you are implying that these materials do not have as serious downsides as finecast. This cannot come from your own experience as you've never touched the stuff so it is from stuff you've read online (or in a chemistry book?). As you are so negative it's most likely from rants. If you instead say google finecast + review you'll get a lot more levelheaded opinions. Nobody is entirely sold on finecast of course, and I am not either. But the material has some great merits as well.

    This is my opinion from using the material:

    Compared to white metal (again not taking casting quality into account):
    + Better detaillevel
    + Easier to clean
    + Easier to convert
    + Lighter
    - Thin weapons are bendy
    - More fragile
    - Might warp in extreme temperatures

    compared to plastics
    + Still more detail and still some limits to how miniatures in plastics are constructed.
    + Easier to clean
    - More fragile
    - Bendy weapons

    compared to regular resin:
    + Not as fragile
    + Seem to have less health issues (I am sensitive to resin dust)
    -Bendy weapons

    Then we have the casting quality issues of GW that puts a big negative sign in each column. If you do get a good cast this- of course - isn't an issue. The price is also an issue, but I suspect that it is GW related and not an inherent property of the material. So my recommendation, as it has been since I tried finecast, is to never buy it online and always carefully check for casting flaws. Could be difficult to see, so also open the blister and study the miniature closely.

    More on the casting. From my experience. About 10-20% of the finecast seem to have very good casts. As for flawless... hm. well not really. I am very picky though.

    This is what I consider a very good cast, even if it is not flawless (quick snapshot - his lower left leg has some filing dust). So judge for yourself.

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    Last edited by Avelorn; 12-12-2012 at 07:51 AM.

  12. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by freakinacage View Post
    First off, always wear a mask. Doesn't matter what the dust is, dust can cause pneumoconiosis, it's just that certain resins are even more toxic/carcinogenic.

    As for bendy or snappy, i'd go for the snappy any day. Although the basic cleanup for finecrap is awesome as it's so soft, having a model that will bend in a warm room makes it unusable imo. At least with brittle stuff you can be careful
    Note taken on the mask thing.

    Fair enough. If you've used the material and come up with that conclusion it is your opinion. It might depend on the miniature what I would pick.

    But this heat related thing? I haven't experienced it anymore then with traditional resin and plastics. Have you? I've heard stories on the Internet but that's all. I've heard nobody here in my town to have issues so far - not to say that there aren't any. Just that they might not be very big.

  13. #33

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    And how many blisters did you have to go thru to find that clean specimen?

    I recall looking at the Games Day minis this past Games Day. There wasn't a single clean one, and THAT WAS AT GAMES DAY.

    I see what you're saying about material vs casting, but since only GW is using Finecast, it's hard to separate the material flaws from the process flaws.

    At least with resin (or plastic or metal) you can compare minis from multiple companies to see what is inherent to the material and what is a result of the process. You can't do that with Finecast. It's all speculation.
    Proud owner of a Cassar!

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  14. #34

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    I dont know why they don't just go plastic, this quality is fantastic (imo)

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    "we reach for the stars, forever looking to the heavens, our minds filled with wonder and the glory of the cosmic all; stretching the boundries of human knowledge and securing the solar system for the Human Species out there beyond the final frontier so one day our decendants will be as gods!
    You hold our hands so we don't blunder into things........and do the photo shop.
    "
    . Andyg


  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10 ball View Post
    I dont know why they don't just go plastic, this quality is fantastic (imo)
    Cost. That was the whole point of Reaper's Kickstarter. Bryan stated that the plastic injection molds ran around $10k. Each. Meanwhile, their molds for metal might run $100.

    But now that I wrote that, isn't most of GW products plastic anyway? Maybe they tried to step up the game with FC, and nobody is willing to tell the CEO that they made a mistake. Probably constant reports of "shipped X units last week, a x% increase!", omitting the fact that 90% (complete fabrication on my part) are replacements.
    "Reality, she's a mathematical bitch from hell.", MaxedOutMama
    Wanna be bored? Watch me twitter. --<>-- Still have neurons? Watch my YouTube channel on painting!
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  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrystanGST View Post
    And how many blisters did you have to go thru to find that clean specimen?

    I recall looking at the Games Day minis this past Games Day. There wasn't a single clean one, and THAT WAS AT GAMES DAY.

    I see what you're saying about material vs casting, but since only GW is using Finecast, it's hard to separate the material flaws from the process flaws.

    At least with resin (or plastic or metal) you can compare minis from multiple companies to see what is inherent to the material and what is a result of the process. You can't do that with Finecast. It's all speculation.
    Not that many but it was a good batch of that particular miniature. For Theoden I went through maybe 7-8 packages and took the best parts out of two of them. Do you mean clean as in no airbubbles?

    Well yes I can only speculate in what is process flaws and what is inherent problems with the material. I am betting on process flaws when it comes to the airbubbles as there are some good batches.

    As for plastics. Soon perhaps but still not free from some restrictions. The DE sorceress I have been painting is great but the way the face fit unto the "neck" created a sharp line that I had to sculpt away.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    You claimed in the previous post that the finecast material was not suitable for casting because of the bendy weapons thing and implied other, unmentioned, flaws. If you at the same time claim that white metal and resin are suitable materials for casting you are implying that these materials do not have as serious downsides as finecast.
    You're reading too much into one of my posts again - what's with bringing metal into this? I didn't mention or refer to metal here so where the heck you inferred that I don't know.

    Let me repeat:
    Quote Originally Posted by Einion View Post
    If the bendy-weapon thing were its only failing, with casting issues rare or nearly absent, I'd still not be in favour of it for two key reasons: mould engineering and price. We need to consistently remind ourselves what it should be directly compared to - quality 'traditional' resin, cast conscientiously.
    I'd hope that's not unclear to anyone else.


    Quote Originally Posted by freakinacage View Post
    As for bendy or snappy, i'd go for the snappy any day.
    Agree.

    Einion

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by PegaZus View Post
    Cost. That was the whole point of Reaper's Kickstarter. Bryan stated that the plastic injection molds ran around $10k. Each. Meanwhile, their molds for metal might run $100.

    But now that I wrote that, isn't most of GW products plastic anyway? Maybe they tried to step up the game with FC, and nobody is willing to tell the CEO that they made a mistake. Probably constant reports of "shipped X units last week, a x% increase!", omitting the fact that 90% (complete fabrication on my part) are replacements.
    $10k!!!, f*ck me - thats why their not giving up with finecast then.
    "we reach for the stars, forever looking to the heavens, our minds filled with wonder and the glory of the cosmic all; stretching the boundries of human knowledge and securing the solar system for the Human Species out there beyond the final frontier so one day our decendants will be as gods!
    You hold our hands so we don't blunder into things........and do the photo shop.
    "
    . Andyg


  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10 ball View Post
    I dont know why they don't just go plastic, this quality is fantastic (imo)
    They are have you not noticed that they are using failcast as a stop gap till all the character models can be released in placcy? A few of the frothers know gw people and it seems the failcast is only a temporary thing. Which is kind of a shame as some classic sculpts will be lost

    Quote Originally Posted by Avelorn View Post
    But this heat related thing? I haven't experienced it anymore then with traditional resin and plastics. Have you? I've heard stories on the Internet but that's all. I've heard nobody here in my town to have issues so far - not to say that there aren't any. Just that they might not be very big.
    Yup I have a mate who has re-bent several swords etc only to have them bend back or have several unbent ones bend in a warm room. Bear in mind, I am not talking about in the window, in a normal room, British summer
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/freak-in-a-cage/freakinacage-1.jpg

  20. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Einion View Post
    Well IMB that does make the material bad, i.e. not suitable for purpose, and it's not like this is the only weakness of the stuff.
    Einion
    I'm sorry if I make you confused. My answers have been directed towards the premise of this statement.

    So you don't think white metal is suitable for purpose?

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