New Nasier Card Discussion!
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 73

Thread: New Nasier Card Discussion!

  1. #1

    Default New Nasier Card Discussion!

    Post your discussions about the newly revamped cards here.

    See something you love?

    See something you hate?

    Either way, let us know here and talk it over with other faction fans!

    http://wrathofkings.com/ks/rules/house-of-nasier/

  2. #2

  3. #3

    Default

    Hi mr. Black,

    first I must say I am a big fan of Wrath of Kings. In fact, I fell in love with the game in february 2013, long before the Kickstarter. Because of reasons however, I could not pledge.
    Anyway, just to show that I am really dedicated to make this game awesome. Love the models, love the rules, love the fluff.

    So, I do have one remark about the Ashmen Hakar. His inspire ability requires the model to start it's activation engaged. That is a pretty passive ability and does not seem to encourage the aggressive playstyle Nasier has to offer.

    I could be wrong of course, maybe I am missing an interaction.

    s7sins

  4. #4

    Default

    Hmmm. Take everything I have to say here with a pinch of salt, as I have a history of being overly pessimistic to balance tweaks to my own factions ...

    However, I am worried that Nasier have lost too much here. Not just strength, which I accept had to happen, but they seem to have changed really significantly in playstyle. Not happy if that is the case.

    Specialists - Rather and Longhorn haven't changed much, still very solid. Bloodchild is undeniably better with double the dice on his magic blast and an additional rule on his melee attack. I guess this should work nicely as his standard bearer bubble is very handy for Nasier's generally mediocre Will; but it requires him to be traipsing around just behind the front lines, which means a short range high dice magic shot will at least give him something to do. His problem is still that I'd almost always have two Rank 1s or a monster than him, but he is certainly closer to the desired power curve now. Greathorn - my big worry as I knew he would take a hit (the v1 Wreathed in Flame was WAAAAAY too good !) but it turns out he did OK. WiF is weaker but still good. Still reasonably tough and WiF means if you throw in multiple 1/1 infantry they gonna burn, baby! His multi-attack melee having a 2" range makes it SO much better. So overall yeah, good but not Blood Engine territory, no complaints.

    Pelegarth. My girls. Really, no longer tarpits, no longer jammers. They have knockback, the Howl's Tactics, and the follow-up Inspire, or the extra speed from Elsis. All of which makes them board control models. But - and don't get me wrong, I know Evasion and Shield Wall are good - they aren't hard enough to kill to be a tarpit unit. And if they don't hit all that hard either, kinda what's the point?

    Ashmen. As noted above the Swordsmen still have the old back but I'll assume it hasn't changed. If they've lost Offensive Mastery for Precision like the Pelegarth lost DM for Evasion ... Yeah, no. Really, no. The Hakar's rules are a muddle. From being a fast type intended to get into melee and stabstabstab, they seem to have the same stats but the rules for Pelegarth, i.e. models who want to get into melee and survive to hit back and get better while engaged. But they have NO defensive abilities and a poor (well, OK, average) defense chart. They won't survive being attacked, so ... um. Oh, and BTW they go from DZ C to DZ B? Really, a fast melee type intended to scream forward and smash face and you move them back in deployment? WTFudge. Alyana is still really good ofc, Frozen Form is a lot better but her Training is much worse, and Freezing Death got toned down. Overall probably a wash, though possibly a bit worse, especially given that the Training and inspire probably won't stack (I mean, obviously they do technically stack, but how often will ignoring the FOURTH armour result matter?)

    So, look, I don't want to be pessimistic and I might just be over reacting. I am really positive about three of the other four armies' updates (I think Teknes are in trouble too if I'm honest). But my inclination is to say CMON got this one wrong. Nasier were much too good in melee before, there's no denying that. But this update feels like a mish mash of rules which mean neither the Pelegarth nor Ashmen have any real purpose in a list. Rather than letting them be defensive / offensive specialists respectively, just not quite as good as they had been, they are now a mess of rules that mean neither is very good at fighting, or very good at surviving.

    I'm worried, someone please tell me I'm wrong! Honestly!

  5. #5

    Default

    After some thinking, I think you guys on the dev team meant: 'when this model begins it's activation unengaged'.. Instead of the current ruling of the Hakar's Inspire ability, but it got a little mashed up..

  6. #6

    Default

    Ashmen Swordsmen are up. Are duelists making hard to use them properly. Counter-attack is nice to have, Ace is an odd ability.

    Again, they seem to be soloist troops, which doesn't make much sense in a army-based wargame.

  7. #7

    Default

    I liked the fact that Nasier was the super in your face army. I understand that they were a little too powerful and needed to be revamped a bit. Of Course I'll still play them, but for an army that isn't particularly tricksy like Hadross, I feel like I'd want them to hit more like a ton of bricks. I do have to agree with PraetorDragoon and say that the ashmen seem kinda soloist due to the fact that the lose all of their special abilities if they are assisted in combat Which again seems sorta counter intuitive to both an army that is all about combat and for a army based game. I do like the fact that the ashmen have a decent amount of dodge so there's a chance they'll actually survive a big fight. On a really positive note the new card layout is drastically easier to read and make sense of. I

  8. #8

    Default

    Maybe it's just getting used to the new guys, but first they felt like a neat and complete army (hitters, tarpits, specialists with melee and ranged support) Now, most things feel all over the place. First, you used the Pelgarith get enemies stuck, then you hit them with the ashmen, and now? Engage them with the ashmen, the push them away with the Pelgarith?

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PraetorDragoon View Post
    Maybe it's just getting used to the new guys, but first they felt like a neat and complete army (hitters, tarpits, specialists with melee and ranged support) Now, most things feel all over the place. First, you used the Pelgarith get enemies stuck, then you hit them with the ashmen, and now? Engage them with the ashmen, the push them away with the Pelgarith?

    Whenever I play I've been running the Ashmen up, engaging to gain my Duelist benefits, and if the enemy decides they want to get cheeky and stop that by ganging up on me the Pelagarth rush them and Shield Bash the newcomers away.

  10. #10

    Default

    Speaking of shield bash, how does it work? Do you need to score a hit to push the others away?

    Also, I think most of it is just adjustments. Nasier was an army that already did work as intended (maybe a little too well) so any changes are harder to adjust too than things that are new or that were plain bad. Now I just need to know how the Hakar's inspire work and I'm set to go!

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PraetorDragoon View Post
    Speaking of shield bash, how does it work? Do you need to score a hit to push the others away?

    Also, I think most of it is just adjustments. Nasier was an army that already did work as intended (maybe a little too well) so any changes are harder to adjust too than things that are new or that were plain bad. Now I just need to know how the Hakar's inspire work and I'm set to go!
    Shield Bash is a 1 die attack with Knockback(2), which is an ability that triggers when the enemy is targeted, not on hit.

    The Hakar's Inspire is exactly as it reads- if the Ashmen begin their activation engaged their attacks get +1 rate.

  12. #12

    Default

    Ah, Shield Bash is a special action, which threw me off. The Hakar's ability doesn't see that useful to me compare to the other Inspire Abilities, as it allows for a counter attack, instead of an useful alpha strike. Seems much more in place on the Pelgarth to me.

  13. #13

    Default

    OK, so I started writing a post with some more specific thoughts on everything but it's turned into a bit of a wall of text. So if it's OK I'm going to start with some rules interactions and possible typos, then I'll put in the TL;DR post explaining my thinking on stuff.

    A few thoughts. First, love the new layout, it's a big improvement.

    Please can you give the Inspire and Training abilities names? IMO it adds massively to the character of the game if you say, e.g. 'my Ashmen who killed someone use Surge Forward to take a free sprint' rather than 'the Hakar's training mechanic allows a sprint move to these models'. Same thing, but it's more fluffy. Also, it actually helps your opponent to keep track of abilities by name which is a good thing.

    Forced movement. Does this still work in the same way? If so there are a few things with odd forced movements. Notably knockback on the Pelegarth as it appears the models are forced by the owning player. Whether force or knockback is the issue, it seems odd. Especially as I can't see a reason why the owning player couldn't just effectively walk them round 2" in a circle and end up where they started as currently written.

    Alyana. Missing the wording of Sundering on her card. cf the Training ability.

    Ashmen Hakar. Just going to ask this here as it seems so inexplicable to me that it might (fingers crossed) be a typo. Did you really mean his Inspire to add +1 rate if they start engaged, or did you mean unengaged? Here's hoping.

    Pelegarth Howl. Hoo boy. I love the knockback ability, and it gets crazy good with her Inspire. However, how do they interact, timings-wise? Say a single Pelegarth Bloodmask group activates with the Howl. She walks into contact and attacks say a Sevridan Gutter, with resilience 2. I allocate my one dice, roll it, and move the Gutter back. (As I say above, I don't know how that forced move is resolved but let's assume the intent is I can force it.) When do I make the move and additional attack from the Inspire? Is it immediately or after damage is applied? In any case, on a one-dice attack I need to roll a hard 10 to kill, but knockback triggers every time I attack. So is there a limit to how many times the Inspire will trigger? or can I potentially have one Pelegarth literally push an enemy model all over the board as long as I keep failing to kill them? This seems like it might be a touch too good!

    Further question - what if a model is blocked in by multiple friendlies and gets knocked back. It cannot move at all, so presumably immediately counts as having contacted a model which takes the rate 1 attack. But is it just one of the other models, or all? And if just one, who chooses?

    Also, for consistency's sake, shouldn't Shield Wall read 'When in contact with a friendly model, this model gains Superior Blocking'. Then add the definition of Superior Blocking below? Avoids rules bloat of multiple almost-identical rules.

    Is the Rathor supposed to be on a 30mm base or 40mm? Not a big issue he just seems a big model for a small base. Also Rathor needs wording of Unrelenting added to Efrenti Guidance.

    Greathorn is missing Sundering (2) and Follow-Through (2) on his melee weapon. Just saying

    Is it intended that Elsis must force a full 3" with her knockback, but that she therefore cannot follow up into contact if she group activates with the Howl's Inspire? Fair enough if intended, just seems harsh for her.

    Edit: Quick thing to add in. I've just checked the main rules, and you can only benefit from the Leader's Inspire if two or more models combine activation. So that means if I just activate the Leader on his own he can't benefit from his own Inspire ability? Is this as intended, it would seem better to let him benefit if he solo activates as well as for the combined activations as now.
    Last edited by Teleologica; 12-31-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  14. #14

    Default

    OK, I've had another read through the cards, and I'm going to stop being negative ( ) and try and see the synergies here.

    Apologies for the wall of text, BTW. Having to work New year’s Eve and I’m bored at work!

    TL;DR is I guess, specialists are all looking good, subject to maybe a couple of tweaks. Pelegarth are excellent. Ashmen are a mess as they’ve been ‘over-balanced’ from overpowered to underpowered. Just my view anyway.

    In reverse order, I guess, Specialists are up first.

    Bloodchild. Very fast, not perhaps very hard but will survive the odd spare attack coming his way. This probably means he is going to be sitting behind the front lines shooting insane 4 dice bouncing fireballs more than using his tasty melee attack. His big base will also make finding a landing pad awkward. Which is a shame given 3 dice with Critical Blow and Unstoppable is amazing! Flight will, though, make it easier to relocate the 6” Will aura where you need it if you’re just using him for shooting and support. And let’s be honest, 6” of Strong Will bubble makes him virtually an auto-include if you’re going to be facing Hadross or Goritsi.

    Longhorn. Still great. A bit on the squishy side, but he’s fast, with C deployment. He’s a good single-target hunter and can also mess with scenario play by shoving your opponent’s models off objectives after they activated, preventing them from scoring. He loves the added out of activation movement shenanigans of both Howl and Hakar’s Training.

    Rathor. Coooool model, I want him to be worth playing. He has a nice but not overwhelming magic attack, plus a good melee attack and a great aura. However, he needs to get in close for the last two as he’s 00 melee range, and a 4” aura, and he’s not terribly tough. Again, I’m not overwhelmed but feel he is a respectable fighter with a couple of extras so a solid investment.

    Greathorn. So relieved that he didn’t lose too much in the great nerfing of ’13. Still not that tough (2/3 and strikes on 7s) and obviously the change to WiF is massive, making him the least well-protected of the five monsters. But that seems to be what Nasier does now, hits hard as long as they can survive a round of melee. So new Wreathed in Flame, which triggers when the monster activates rather than when stuff tries to get in to kill it. It’s probably a fairer version of the rule, even allowing that the not-terribly-survivable Greathorn might die to a concerted attack before it triggers. The balance to this general lack of survivability should be an awesome melee attack, right? Well … kinda. It is an improvement on the old version simply because of that tasty 2” range. And yes it does mean you can be rolling 9 attack dice in an activation, having potentially cleared screeners first by incinerating them. That’s not a terrible thing. But no Sundering, no Follow-up, no Critical Blow? It kind of feels wrong that this hulking demon-creature’s massive war hammer and cleaver don’t ignore armour or shields at all. Almost incidentally, his magic attack is fantastic - no bells and whistles, short range, but a four dice magic missile will kill things dead. I’m, overall, about 90% convinced he is well-balanced. I just need to get him into combat and see how he does.

    So, let’s look at infantry next. Leaders last as they will kind of tie together the (frayed, ragged and flapping) threads of my thoughts …

    Swordsmen. Definitely changed since v1, as now they want to be in solo combats rather than combined combats. At first I was angry about this change (change, change, we fears it my precious) but it actually to me makes more sense with the fluff. They're super uber awesometastic ninja warriors who want to fight solo in the middle of the seething carnage of battle, not gang up on people with their buddies. The issue is how effectively do they reflect this intent. Deployment Zone B is a kick in the nads frankly. They were C and I saw that as being an essential part of the speed of the army. On its own speed 7 is nice and gives them a likely first strike, but oddly they don’t seem to want that. Even the Hakar’s Inspire supports them wanting to take the charge and attack back. But an average defensive chart and NO innate defensive abilities makes that seem an unlikely prospect. I am baffled at the apparent intent that they get into melee and hope that they survive. Really? That sounds like tarpit tactics - so why are they so bad defensively? And why is their counter attack so underwhelming (it doesn’t benefit from the Hakar’s Inspire, and the opponent can bypass both Act with Certainty and Duelist by double-engaging)? They feel like where the Legionnaires and Hadross Spearmen were in v1 - not really good enough and with no real purpose. Both of those models have IMO been fixed so it’s frustrating that the Ashmen have been ‘unfixed’ from a nearly-OK state (yes, yes, they were too good but that was because of the Hakar’s Inspire and Training, they didn’t actually need anything changing on the card). If the Hakar’s Inspire was amended by adding ‘un-’ to the ‘engaged’ that would actually make them OK. Change AWC and Duelist to while engaging one or more enemies which are not also engaged by another friendly model, and they would be really good. Super ninjas shouldn’t get bonuses for ganging up on enemies, but why shouldn’t they when being ganged up on?

    The Pelegarth. My first thoughts were frustration but I’ll admit I was wrong.The more I look at them the more I think they’re actually better now than they were. Speed 6 is OK, makes them a second line rather than jammer / tarpits, but OK. Except they’re DZ C which means they’re in front of the Ashmen they’re nominally supporting - that’s a problem with Ashmen not Pelegarth though. Will 5 is low average. 1/1 and strikes on 7s is also solidly average for rank 1 troops. Nothing here really jumping out as defensive troop stats, right? Add Evasion and Shield Wall into the mix and … ooh. OK, looking better. The base contact limitation is an issue but there are ways of dealing with it. Their melee attack is as basic as it comes but they have the frankly awesome knockback which triggers on target not hit. Ironically, they are probably happier played with a mix of Leaders than just the Howl or even Howl plus Elsis. The problem is they want to get Elsis’ Inspire early on to get up the board; but the Howl’s almost all the time once lines engage. However, they benefit greatly from Alyana’s Training ability (who doesn’t like Sundering? ), and most of all from the Hakar’s. Group activation with Howl lets them advance, smack someone, follow up and smack them again, and if the target’s dead, make another 4” sprint. This can embed them 12” into the enemy lines having made two melee attacks (10” if they kill the target on the first swing). Actually, rules dilemma. [snip]

    Phew, sorry. Rules confusion infinite recursion loop. I’ve posted the question in my post above. I’m OK now.

    Finally, Leaders. Do these guys really bring the faction together?

    Ashmen Hakar. So he’s a slightly tougher, slightly fightier Swordsman. Yay. Main reasons for bringing him are the Inspire and the Training. Inspire would be awesome on the Pelegarth if they could benefit from it (in fact IIRC isn’t it the same thing the Howl used - perfectly sensibly - to have?) but is of no blasted use to the Ashmen as discussed already. The Training ability (quite apart from being directly counter-synergistic to his own Inspire) actually has a lot of use. It would have more use if the faction had any access to Fast, but I guess that would steal Goritsi’s schtick, so OK. It allows the ability to hit and run with Ashmen, or for some outstanding mobility shenanigans with the Pelegarth, including the ability to reposition forward into Shield Wall after engaging and knocking back an enemy. I’m going to call him a C+ - trying hard, but the two main reasons for bringing him are directly contradictory and he works as well or better with the other unit type than with his own.

    Alyana Heska. Really, an outstanding model in v1, and still good. Defensively 2/3 and strikes on 7s is reasonably hard, though like the Greathorn, start comparing her to other factions and she gets a bit green around the gills. The trend is the same really, stats wise she is about standard, but is entirely reliant on those stats defensively where others have Defensive Insights, Wards, etc (all except Goritsi, obv, but screw those guys, they have no complaints right now!) Her melee attack is where things start heating up as six dice pick four is v1 Ashmen levels of awesome. Frozen Form, while superficially appearing absolutely amazing, is perhaps a little more situational than I initially thought. Not everyone has armour results, and Reactions are relatively rare. Shael Han and Goritsi simply don’t care. Hadross and Nasier are both fairly neutral about facing Alyana as they have armour but no reactions, or vice versa (Bloodchild is the only member of Nasier who doesn’t turn up to fight in his underpants apparently). Teknes, it goes without saying, can just shake hands and go to the bar if they see Alyana. Armour everywhere, and they are hugely reliant on their counter attacks. Another kick in the teeth for the poor Teknes IMO, and I don’t like this rule. It is plainly a substantial part of the reason to bring her, but her entire Inspire ability does almost nothing against two factions, is reasonably good against two, and is crippling to the fifth. That’s not an ability you should be seeing on an ‘all-comers’ type of model. Freezing Death is still cool, shame to lose an inch on the debuff but it’s still very powerful, especially combined with the Howl’s Training ability. Heh. Come here boys, chilly cuddles for you all. Training is cool, because who doesn’t like Sundering? Oh wait, except of course if you’re already ignoring the first three armour results and now get to ignore the fourth. Which a total of, count them, four models in the game have. And three of them are in Teknes. Back on the naughty step, Teknes players, Alyana says you can’t come out to play until you’ve been adequately punished for, I don’t know, being Genghis Khan in a former life or something.

    Pelegarth Howl. Still a tough as nails fighter. Not as hard as before (it gives us back Defensive Mastery or it gets the hose again …), but nonetheless she’s pretty tough. A two dice attack with Unrelenting is handy, though it is a shame she loses the rule and a dice if she wants to knockback. Overall her innate stats are, like the Bloodmasks, not great but good enough. She fits solidly in the army. Her Inspire ability though makes her a must-include with Pelegarth as they go from merely having a basic attack with the slam back to having two attacks and additional movement. Depending on answers to my questions above as to exactly how this works with forced movement and multiple attacks it could turn out to be utterly butterly bonkers broken. Oh, BTW I also just noticed one thing from Teknes that will make Nasier sad. Sevisk has that amazing unbreakable tarpit aura gravity field thing, so combined with his no-disengage aura and the reaction, Citizens will be a million times better tarpits than Pelegarth. Boo.

    I don’t think the Howl’s Training ability is quite as silly as her Inspire, but the more I look at it the more possibilities I see. Not much can ignore the disengaging penalty which means only Speed 8+ models and stuff that can place can actually get out of melee at all. This means Pelegarth are really going to be the masters of choosing whether or not they want your models to be engaged. In addition, I guess it means Ashmen have a means of staying in melee for their Inspire ability to kick in when their activation rolls around. In terms of other models benefiting, the Longhorn might be happy with this. More movement shenanigans seems like something he’d like, right? Oh, another thing that occurs - the Training ability is towards not directly towards, meaning that like the Hakar’s Training, the Pelegarth will like it for getting into Shield Wall. Alternatively you can just use it to let the enemy disengage and get a free repositioning move for a better charge or to score / contest an objective or zone. Finally - and you thought I’d forgotten, didn’t you - the Greathorn. Man is this ability broken with Wreathed in Flame. Stay standing next to this guy and I die? That doesn’t sound good, I’ll walk away. Wait, why is he following me and REPOSITIONING RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF A CROWD OF MY D00DS??!? Aaaagh urrrrgh burn burn scream etc.

    Elsis Tagil. Nearly there, last model is the character version of the Pelegarth Howl. She has the best defensive stats in the faction with evasion and superior blocking, and she is going to be incredibly tough to put down. Her Will aura is useful and tag-teams well with the Bloodchild. Her melee attack is also very solid, we’ve really got nothing to complain about so far.

    Finally her Command Abilities. Inspire. This is a really hard one to judge in isolation. +2 speed on the Pelegarth seems like a pretty meh ability. However, adding it in to the plethora of movement-based tricks they’re now getting it might - just might, I’m not sure yet - be a solid group activation benefit in scenario play. Her Training ability is a more straightforward defence buff. Evasion (+1) is nice. It’s handy, though the multi-engaged condition is irritating. Oddly enough though, again it seems that the infantry who benefit most are the Ashmen as this is the only way in the entire faction they can get a direct defensive ability. Given they are more reactively-biased than before that seems quite important. Having said that, of course, it only works when double-engaged, which negates ALL THEIR OTHER BLOODY ABILITIES … yeah yeah, broken record, I know.

  15. #15

    Default

    Sorry - can someone clarify the Shield Bash? Is it considered an action? If so then is it considered an attack?
    It looks like it 1 Die attack that doesn't trigger [Reaction] Abilities to the targeted enemy model and then pushes it back, dealing a 1 Die attack (that also doesn't trigger [Reaction] Abilities) to any model it runs into.

    Is this correct?

  16. #16
    Senior Member blkdymnd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Shelton, Washington, United States
    Posts
    143
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    During the gameplay video released today, they used it as an action and didn't roll for it.

  17. #17

    Default

    Shield Bash is a Special action, one that causes damage to 2+ possible models. You target someone, then they get moved back up to 2", and you roll a 1 Die Attack on the model targeted. If the targeted model hits someone when being pushed, you roll a 1 Die attack on any models struck.

    The important point is that this is a special action, and not an attack action. If it were considered an attack action, then with the Howls Inspire, the action would never end until the model being struck finally died, which means against a high defense model that this could go on for hours. Being a special action this stops this from occuring.

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swan View Post
    Shield Bash is a Special action, one that causes damage to 2+ possible models. You target someone, then they get moved back up to 2", and you roll a 1 Die Attack on the model targeted. If the targeted model hits someone when being pushed, you roll a 1 Die attack on any models struck.

    The important point is that this is a special action, and not an attack action. If it were considered an attack action, then with the Howls Inspire, the action would never end until the model being struck finally died, which means against a high defense model that this could go on for hours. Being a special action this stops this from occuring.
    Shield Bash is not an attack. It Just causes Knockback. The model being targeted does not take any damage, only those it contacts.

  19. #19
    Senior Member blkdymnd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Shelton, Washington, United States
    Posts
    143
    Rep Power
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    Shield Bash is not an attack. It Just causes Knockback. The model being targeted does not take any damage, only those it contacts.
    So it's more like curling than pinball

  20. #20

    Default

    Question on Shield Bash then

    Why does it show an attack die in the ability (in the same manner every attack does)?

    Then there is an explanation about what Knockback does? Wouldn't it be clearer having no attack die shown in the same manner that Chi Blast is written?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Privacy Policy  |   Terms and Conditions  |   Contact Us  |   The Legion


Copyright © 2001-2018 CMON Inc.

-->