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Thread: New Nasier Card Discussion!

  1. #21

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    Training and inspires comparision (Because, you know, all of them should be viable)

    First of all, trainings. (Trainings work on all models, including specialists, so are judged by that)

    Hakar: "Models that engaged an enemy this turn, and would end their activation unengaged may make a special sprint action before their activation ends."

    If you charge, and you kill somebody, you get a free sprint movement. Pretty useful due to the alpha-strike nature of Nasier and is liked by all melee models. (or to say, Nasier's whole army) 5/5

    Howl: "When an enemy model disengages, after that movement, 1 model may move up to 4" towards that model."

    Nowhere to run! Note that it doesn't have to be the model that was disengaged from. Shield bashing enemies disengages them, so you can follow up with Ashmen to strike them. situational, but can be useful when you get it. 3/5

    Alyanna: "Models gain Sundering(1)".

    Ignore the first armor result. Boring, but practical. Very practical. 4/5

    Elsis: "Models in this army gain evasion(1) while in contact with 2 or more enemy models.

    More useful than I first thought. Ashmen will be engaged with two in order to strip them of their duelist bonus. and you can move the Pelgarth to trap two guys with more ease. Evasion is pretty useful to get your parries/blocks. 4/5.

    Overall, trainings are pretty good and all of them are reasonable choices. As said, howl is situational, but can be the most powerful in theory if utilized properly, as movement shenegians are always good. Overall, no real bad options, but the pelgarith ones require more thought than the others.


    Inspires (Inspires only work on same subfaction models, so they will be judged by them)

    Hakar: "When this model begins it's activation engaged, it's melee attacks gains [+1]"

    Erm. This makes the Ashmen better when they start engaged, meaning you require movement shenegains (We have one, which is convulted) or take a charge (glass cannons taking charges?) It makes them better in prolonged engagements, which is everything Nasier and especially the Ashmen stand for. 1/5

    Howl: "If this model becomes engaged during it's activation and causes knockback, it may move 2" directly towards the model moved and then make 1 attack on the model."

    As crappy as the Hakar's inspire is, that good is the Howl's inspire. It really allows them to control the board, and deal damage. It makes the things the Pelgarth already do better, which is just plain good. 5/5

    Alyanna: "Models gain frozen form(1)"

    Better sundering. Combine with the training for sunder(2). Oh, and it ignores reaction abilities. I think I hear linemen weep. 5/5

    Elsis: "During this activation, models in this activation gain +2[MOVE]."

    Seems lackluster, especially compared to the amazing Howl ability. However, NEVER ignore the advantages additional movement adds. The amount of reach you get is just plain good. You know, that support model that stands just out of reach? Now it doesn't. It also allows you to ignore up to rough(2) terrain, making it a very useful ability. It won't help much in an engagment, but it helps getting there. 4/5

    Overall, the Hakar stands out for being "what am I supposed to do with this?" You don't want long engagements, you want your ashmen to get 1-on-1 dueling, killing the enemey, and moving on. The other inspires are good, all of them.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by blkdymnd View Post
    So it's more like curling than pinball
    Curling...that's awesome!

    @Swan - the rate in shield bash should be blank - added to the list.
    Throne of Angels

    Are you WATCHING?

    AKA - AngelicOne

  3. #23

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    Played a quick game totday, Shael Han vs Nasier. Tried to get my Newfound combo going. (Howl's training to get ashmen in combat early.) it would have worked, if I didn't use ashmen but pelgarth for it. They suffer two major weaknesses, being ganged up and magic. Both of these are already valid, but gain a multiplier when hit by them.

    Duellist is useful and neat, but the rest is useless. Please let them parry magic or change the parries to dodges so they can actually take something. Ace is crap, and Needs to go the wat of the dodo. Lastly, counter attack on an alpha strikter on one of the weakest defenses... Not good.

    tl;dr pelgarth are better

  4. #24

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    From Dan Start in the WoK KS Comments:
    I don't know if this has already been addressed, but the back of the Rathor card has multiple typos in the efrenti blast. One of which makes it difficult to discern whether it targets the multiple models it suggests or a single model.

  5. #25

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    The ashmans back of card is empty?

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameshasker09 View Post
    The ashmans back of card is empty?
    There may be an issue with your system, I see the txt on the back of the Ashman's card

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by PraetorDragoon View Post
    Played a quick game totday, Shael Han vs Nasier. Tried to get my Newfound combo going. (Howl's training to get ashmen in combat early.) it would have worked, if I didn't use ashmen but pelgarth for it. They suffer two major weaknesses, being ganged up and magic. Both of these are already valid, but gain a multiplier when hit by them.

    Duellist is useful and neat, but the rest is useless. Please let them parry magic or change the parries to dodges so they can actually take something. Ace is crap, and Needs to go the wat of the dodo. Lastly, counter attack on an alpha strikter on one of the weakest defenses... Not good.

    tl;dr pelgarth are better
    Changing Parry to Dodge would actually increase the number of units in the game, overall, that could kill them, as Follow-Through is drastically more prominent than Magic attacks. One thing I will point out is that you played against Shael Han, the specific faction that focuses on magic more than anything else, aka the faction that has the most answers to Ashmen. Something to note is each faction has another that counters a lot of their defensive abilities (Shael Han, for example, are hurt a lot by the Suppression of Teknes, who are in turn hurt by the Sundering of Hadross, who are in turn hurt by the Follow-Through of Goritsi, who are in turn hurt by the Unrelenting of Nasier, who are in turn hurt by the Magic attacks of Shael Han...Phew...)

  8. #28

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    So I'm going to chime in with my opinion, overall, on Nasier.

    From feedback on this thread I see people basically come to the conclusion they don't like the Hakar Inspire because it's defensive in nature versus the offensive nature of the Ashmen. I can understand where people come from in that regard, but let me voice my opinion here.

    The Ashmen, as they currently are, are some of the most reliably hardest hitting Rank 1 Infantry in the game due to their high speed and ability to get Offensive Mastery- These two factors, when combined, mean that versus most any other R1 Infantry in the game they will engage and kill (average hit ratio of infantry is 40%, with the Ashmen rolling two dice the chances of hitting this margin is very high), the exception to this, ironically, is the Union Workers of Teknes, another unit people are underwhelmed by (but I'll speak on that in the Teknes thread). People have lamented that their Counter-Attack doesn't trigger enough, or that their innate bonuses can be countered by ganging-up on them... And yes, that's true... But one thing to consider is that for every 2 models the opponent is using to deny those benefits... They are using two+ models to stop the benefits of a Rank 1 Infantry, aka the most prolific unit in the army. If they try to attrition it out like that then an opponent will be devoting their entire force to stopping half of yours- the numbers don't work out in their favor.

    This is by design- it forces the opponent into a hard choice- gang up on a common Rank 1 Infantry to deny it its benefits, or ignore it and have it continue to hit as hard as it hits.

    But once again, from what people are posting here, few have actual issue with the Ashmen, but more so with the Hakar and his inspire. People look at the Ashmen and their alpha-strike nature and then look at the Hakar who has an obvious defensive Inspire and go "Huh? That seems more at home on Pelegarth!" Well again going back to designs and hard choices for the opponent, this is a direct counter to that... You want to deny the Ashmen their benefits by ganging up on them? Well I'm going to punish you for that as well now by giving them more attacks! Is it flashy or techy? Not really, it's just a flat benefit for punishing the opponent for taking away your toys.

    Add to all this Counter-Attack, an ability I often see overlooked. The Ashmen have the distinct ability of being the only infantry in the game that can actually kill you while it's your turn. They have an average defense stat (40% hit ratio, just like the majority of all other infantry) but also boast a 40% Counter-Attack trigger, meaning that 1v1 an opponent has just as much chance to get attacked by them as they do killing them. Once again pointing that Rank 1 Infantry have 1 attack exclusively (with the exception of the Goritisi War Dancers, there is always an exception) and it becomes detrimental to the opponent to engage these guys 1v1, once more pushing the opponent into the gang-up situation.

    That has been my experience in playing these guys. Of course I am not so set in my ways as to ignore player feedback- That is the entire point of releasing all these rules to you guys is feedback, and no one on my design team is so brash as to go "WE"RE ALWAYS RIGHT, ALL THE TIME, HAW HAW HAW!!!!" If player opinion is these guys need something else, then we'll look into it, but I want people to see everyone's experiences (especially the design team) and how they've been playing the armies over the course of playtesting (which, as to be expected, happens day after day after day for time immemorial).

    Is the Hakar ability defensive? Mmm, personally I'd consider it more passive-aggresssive, but again, no one's opinion here is discounted, I'm merely posting my own to add to the discussion.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    So I'm going to chime in with my opinion, overall, on Nasier.

    From feedback on this thread I see people basically come to the conclusion they don't like the Hakar Inspire because it's defensive in nature versus the offensive nature of the Ashmen. I can understand where people come from in that regard, but let me voice my opinion here.

    The Ashmen, as they currently are, are some of the most reliably hardest hitting Rank 1 Infantry in the game due to their high speed and ability to get Offensive Mastery- These two factors, when combined, mean that versus most any other R1 Infantry in the game they will engage and kill (average hit ratio of infantry is 40%, with the Ashmen rolling two dice the chances of hitting this margin is very high), the exception to this, ironically, is the Union Workers of Teknes, another unit people are underwhelmed by (but I'll speak on that in the Teknes thread). People have lamented that their Counter-Attack doesn't trigger enough, or that their innate bonuses can be countered by ganging-up on them... And yes, that's true... But one thing to consider is that for every 2 models the opponent is using to deny those benefits... They are using two+ models to stop the benefits of a Rank 1 Infantry, aka the most prolific unit in the army. If they try to attrition it out like that then an opponent will be devoting their entire force to stopping half of yours- the numbers don't work out in their favor.

    This is by design- it forces the opponent into a hard choice- gang up on a common Rank 1 Infantry to deny it its benefits, or ignore it and have it continue to hit as hard as it hits.
    So, they are using two models to stop the benefits, or they are engaging two of your models. No other model has such a effective basic counter. (As in, with this I make 66% of your model useless, AND it can be preformed with every model I have. Other basic infantry are weak to certain abilities, but have reliable tricks in place for that) Which brings me to my issue. Reliability. I didn't found out they were reliable. They can do nice damage, sure, but so could the Pelgarth, who can also evade, knockback and shieldwall. Ashmen have a chance of getting a counterattack, the ace ability (Why?) and duelist. In most cases, Pelgarth deal as much damage (not always hitting, but they have tricks to make up for it), but are more survivable, thus, making them more desirable to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    But once again, from what people are posting here, few have actual issue with the Ashmen, but more so with the Hakar and his inspire. People look at the Ashmen and their alpha-strike nature and then look at the Hakar who has an obvious defensive Inspire and go "Huh? That seems more at home on Pelegarth!" Well again going back to designs and hard choices for the opponent, this is a direct counter to that... You want to deny the Ashmen their benefits by ganging up on them? Well I'm going to punish you for that as well now by giving them more attacks! Is it flashy or techy? Not really, it's just a flat benefit for punishing the opponent for taking away your toys.
    The ones that are taken away can't be inspired, and those that can be inspired aren't engaged. Great. (In my game, I think I had used it ONCE, on a single model. The others? They died.)

    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    Add to all this Counter-Attack, an ability I often see overlooked. The Ashmen have the distinct ability of being the only infantry in the game that can actually kill you while it's your turn. They have an average defense stat (40% hit ratio, just like the majority of all other infantry) but also boast a 40% Counter-Attack trigger, meaning that 1v1 an opponent has just as much chance to get attacked by them as they do killing them. Once again pointing that Rank 1 Infantry have 1 attack exclusively (with the exception of the Goritisi War Dancers, there is always an exception) and it becomes detrimental to the opponent to engage these guys 1v1, once more pushing the opponent into the gang-up situation.
    Defender Linemen are the other rank 1 infantry with counter attack, which has a 30% success chance, which is the same as the hit chance, but grants more dice. Another exception Counter attack is reasonable, and my only issue was that it was on the parry result, which was a little painful because of magic attack spam.

    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    That has been my experience in playing these guys. Of course I am not so set in my ways as to ignore player feedback- That is the entire point of releasing all these rules to you guys is feedback, and no one on my design team is so brash as to go "WE"RE ALWAYS RIGHT, ALL THE TIME, HAW HAW HAW!!!!" If player opinion is these guys need something else, then we'll look into it, but I want people to see everyone's experiences (especially the design team) and how they've been playing the armies over the course of playtesting (which, as to be expected, happens day after day after day for time immemorial).

    Is the Hakar ability defensive? Mmm, personally I'd consider it more passive-aggresssive, but again, no one's opinion here is discounted, I'm merely posting my own to add to the discussion.
    It's useful, but comes up like, once or twice. With 1-2 models. Compared to all other inspires, it just doesn't cut it. The only reason to take a Hakar is if you want it's training, otherwise, pick Alyanna, everytime. She's just flat better at leading and fighting.

    Ashmen suffer from the theory-syndrome. They are a one-trick pony, take away their trick, and they become wasted. Their effectiveness mostly depends on how easy it is to stop their trick. (hint: easy) Also, they suffer from Ace, which is another neat theory idea. If they die, they can still parry. Cool. But when they die, they don't parry, because they hit strikes, not parries.

    So, get rid of ace. It's plain bad and eats space for something thats actually useful.

  10. #30

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    I am not understanding, first you state that you engage the Ashmen to negate their Duelist Ability, then you state that any Ashmen engaged must obviously have been killed so no inspire can take place. Its got to be one way or the other. If you engage 2 Ashmen with a single guy, and you kill one of the Ashmen, you are now facing a single Ashmen that gets the benefits of Duelist and Inspire. If you go one on one and kill all of the models that were engaged, the Ashmen will then be able to engage the opponent one on one and Offensive mastery has a 64% chance to kill a model with 4 strikes/overpowers on its card. If you Engage two Ashmen and fail to kill either then while they may not have Offensive Mastery anymore, but what they do get is an extra attack die, so they are hitting back with 4 Dice. Again, Praetor, not understanding your point here.

    I actually find that the Hakar's ability bolsters her troops when they get stuck in a battle with the opponents tarpit forces. If you change it to work when unengaged, you get a 3 die attack against opponents (one of the dice are a re-roll) you get a 78% chance to kill an opponent when starting unengaged and attacking a single unit (again with 4 strikes/overpowers) on their card, but that same figure would only have a 40% chance to succeed if he became engaged first. The way it sits now you would have a 64% chance whether starting engaged or unengaged. Sounds pretty good, and very reliable to me.

    As for your statement about just bringing Alyanna instead, yes she is a better leader, and has a better inspire, at the cost of 2 Hakar, which means that she can only be in so many places at once, and fewer forces can benefit from her inspire. This is always the trade off for any Rank 2 leader vs a rank 1 leader.

    Act with Certainty is just an extra bonus. Truly the Ashmen do not need it, but it is a nifty little extra to put in. Will it be a common occurrence? I doubt it, but it does make them slightly better then they are without it. And against a single die attack if they die they will not get their parry, but what if they were facing 2 opponents, or a Wardancer where 2 dice were used? Then you can hit with both a strike and a parry, meaning the Ashman dies, but still gets his counter-attack.

    Again, I will have to go with Mr. Black on this one. You fought Shael Han, and had the wrong troops to face them. Pelegarth would have been better due to their lack of dodge. It seems you are trying to get a rank 1 infantry unit that is reliable on attacking (Ashmen Are) but have the resilience of a Pelegarth or a Lineman. While I agree this would be a good troop to field, it would also be better then a Rank 1 infantry troop.

  11. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swan View Post
    I am not understanding, first you state that you engage the Ashmen to negate their Duelist Ability, then you state that any Ashmen engaged must obviously have been killed so no inspire can take place. Its got to be one way or the other. If you engage 2 Ashmen with a single guy, and you kill one of the Ashmen, you are now facing a single Ashmen that gets the benefits of Duelist and Inspire. If you go one on one and kill all of the models that were engaged, the Ashmen will then be able to engage the opponent one on one and Offensive mastery has a 64% chance to kill a model with 4 strikes/overpowers on its card. If you Engage two Ashmen and fail to kill either then while they may not have Offensive Mastery anymore, but what they do get is an extra attack die, so they are hitting back with 4 Dice. Again, Praetor, not understanding your point here.

    I actually find that the Hakar's ability bolsters her troops when they get stuck in a battle with the opponents tarpit forces. If you change it to work when unengaged, you get a 3 die attack against opponents (one of the dice are a re-roll) you get a 78% chance to kill an opponent when starting unengaged and attacking a single unit (again with 4 strikes/overpowers) on their card, but that same figure would only have a 40% chance to succeed if he became engaged first. The way it sits now you would have a 64% chance whether starting engaged or unengaged. Sounds pretty good, and very reliable to me.

    As for your statement about just bringing Alyanna instead, yes she is a better leader, and has a better inspire, at the cost of 2 Hakar, which means that she can only be in so many places at once, and fewer forces can benefit from her inspire. This is always the trade off for any Rank 2 leader vs a rank 1 leader.

    Act with Certainty is just an extra bonus. Truly the Ashmen do not need it, but it is a nifty little extra to put in. Will it be a common occurrence? I doubt it, but it does make them slightly better then they are without it. And against a single die attack if they die they will not get their parry, but what if they were facing 2 opponents, or a Wardancer where 2 dice were used? Then you can hit with both a strike and a parry, meaning the Ashman dies, but still gets his counter-attack.

    Again, I will have to go with Mr. Black on this one. You fought Shael Han, and had the wrong troops to face them. Pelegarth would have been better due to their lack of dodge. It seems you are trying to get a rank 1 infantry unit that is reliable on attacking (Ashmen Are) but have the resilience of a Pelegarth or a Lineman. While I agree this would be a good troop to field, it would also be better then a Rank 1 infantry troop.
    Sigh. I cannot put my thoughts in words again.

    I don't want a troop that can do everything well, but I want a troop that compares well towards the Pelegarth. To me it seems that most of what the Ashmen can pull, Pelegarth can do just as well, while also being more defensive.

    Also, I want ace to be gone. It's too situational to be effective for me.

    (Wraths were natural counters to the Ashmen, so that was too painful to be gauging them. Also, the Dragon Legionaires could parry magic. The whole matchup just made me sad)

  12. #32

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    Well, I will agree with you there. I am not sure I really go for this rock-paper-scissors scheme CMoN seems to be building.

    Ashmen against Shael han is just a bad match-up all around. The biggest advantage that the Ashmen have - their longer charge, gets negated by the Keepers inspire, giving the Legionnaires the same 7" threat range. The fact that the Legionairre with the Inspiration has an 80% chance to kill an Ashmen is rough, but Ashmen still have that 64% chance to kill the Legionairre.

    The one bonus that Ashmen have over most infantry though is that they will kill a Wrath 19% of the time, vs 10% for most other troops. Not too bad for 1 rank 1 vs a rank 2.

    Pelegarth on the other hand have evasion, which gives a Legionairre only a 30% chance to kill one. Multiple Dice against a Pelegarth hurt as much as help since each die has a 50% chance of causing a block, and if Shield Wall is in place, that will negate a strike, changing a 64% chance to kill a Pelegarth with 2 dice into a 32% chance to kill her, still slightly better then when attacking with a single die, but not by much. So on Defense, the Pelegarth are solid. On attack they have 2 options, Knockback, to injure a model behind the unit they are attacking, or striking. Each with a 40% chance to damage a standard rank 1 infantry. The bonus is if they start unengaged then they get in effect an attack on two models. The problem with this is that they benefit from keeping in contact with one another, and bouncing troops and following up has the issue of breaking the formation. The second problem is that they have to start unegaged to gain this advantage.

    The other point is that the Pelegarths threat range is only 6".

    So, from a reliability standpoint:
    Pelegarth can knock out a "standard" Rank 1 troops 40% of the time, and survive a hit from one 70% of the time
    Ashmen will knock out a "standard" Rank 1 troop 64% of the time and survive a hit 60% of the time, with a 40% chance to strike the opponent back

    Against magic and ranged, Ashmen lose - ALWAYS, but straight up numbers,they really are a good troop
    Last edited by Swan; 01-02-2014 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Had to adjust a bad percentage :)

  13. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    Changing Parry to Dodge would actually increase the number of units in the game, overall, that could kill them, as Follow-Through is drastically more prominent than Magic attacks. One thing I will point out is that you played against Shael Han, the specific faction that focuses on magic more than anything else, aka the faction that has the most answers to Ashmen. Something to note is each faction has another that counters a lot of their defensive abilities (Shael Han, for example, are hurt a lot by the Suppression of Teknes, who are in turn hurt by the Sundering of Hadross, who are in turn hurt by the Follow-Through of Goritsi, who are in turn hurt by the Unrelenting of Nasier, who are in turn hurt by the Magic attacks of Shael Han...Phew...)
    And you think having ENTIRE factions that counter another faction is a good thing for game balance???

  14. #34

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    I also think it's worth noting (since I haven't seen it mentioned) that Ashmen actually become worse, the larger the game you play in. If you play in a "Battle" there are going to be a lot more models on the board, and it's going to be that much harder to pull off duelist.

  15. #35

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    I would actually tend to disagree. Ashmen have proven to maintain their level of effectiveness at all of the different levels we've tested. Whether it's a 20 model skirmish or a 50 model battle, they are quite intimidating. Also, while every faction will encounter difficulties if they try to employ the same blanket tactic against every faction they face, this doesn't mean that entire factions counter other entire factions. Yes, nasier suffer when they try to parry versus shael hann, but pelegarths can offset this with their ability to block. Likewise, while teknes may suffer a bit more to the sundering hadross brings, they can work around it by bringing larger numbers of union workers who don't rely as heavily upon having high armor. It largely comes down to a matter of finding what works for you and your playstyle within the local meta game of where you play.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by joshuar56 View Post
    I also think it's worth noting (since I haven't seen it mentioned) that Ashmen actually become worse, the larger the game you play in. If you play in a "Battle" there are going to be a lot more models on the board, and it's going to be that much harder to pull off duelist.
    Not seeing how this can be. Since Ashmen will be making the charge more often then not, they will have the option on how to place their figures, meaning that if it is 5 or 50 on the board the Nasier will always get Duelist if they want it.

  17. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by joshuar56 View Post
    And you think having ENTIRE factions that counter another faction is a good thing for game balance???

    This is obviously exaggerated, it's easy to always make broad generalizations. I mean if you really want to get into it...

    Nasier // Nasier
    Nasier hurt Goritsi via Unrelenting (Primary Defense Stat)(Major)
    Nasier hurt Teknes via Sundering (Secondary Offense Stat)(Minor)
    Nasier hurt Shael Han via ignore Feedback (Primary Defense Stat)(Minor)
    Nasier hurt Hadross via Sundering (Secondary Defense Stat)(Minor)


    Shael Han hurt Nasier via Feint (Primary Offense Stat)(Major)
    Shael Han hurt Goritsi via Suppression (Minor Offense Stat versus Secondary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Shael Han hurt Teknes via Feint and Suppression (Secondary Defense Stat in both cases) (Minor)
    Shael Han hurt Shael Han via Suppression (Minor Offense Stat versus Primary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Shael Han hurt Hadross via Suppression (Minor Offense Stat versus Tertiary Defense Stat) (Minor)


    Goritsi hurt Nasier via Follow-Through (Major Offense Stat versus Secondary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Gortisi // Goritsi
    Goritsi hurt Teknes via Sundering (Secondary Offensive Stat versus Primary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Goritsi hurt Hadross via Follow-Through (Major Offense Stat versus Primary Defense Stat) (Major)
    Goritsi hurt Shael Han via Unrelenting (Minor Offense versus Minor Defense Stat) (Minor)


    Teknes hurt Nasier via Follow-Through (Minor Offense Stat versus Minor Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Teknes hurt Goritsi via Suppression (Major Offense Stat versus Minor Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Teknes // Teknes
    Teknes hurt Hadross via Sundering and Suppression (Major/Minor Offense Stat versus Minor Defense Stats) (Minor)
    Teknes hurt Shael Han via Suppression (Major Offense Stat versus Major Defense Stat) (Major)


    Hadross hurt Nasier via Will Attacks (Offensive Ability versus lower Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Hadross hurt Goritsi via Sundering (Major Offense Stat versus Tertiary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Hadross hurt Teknes via Sundering (Major Offense Stat versus Major Defense Stat) (Major)
    Hadross // Hadross
    Hadross hurt Shael Han via Will Attacks (Offensive Ability //negate// Secondary Defense Abilities) (Minor)



    Of course that's just a quick look, but I really don't like hearing someone blanket and go "It's just rock paper scissors" off of a comment posted to discuss another point.

  18. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    This is obviously exaggerated, it's easy to always make broad generalizations. I mean if you really want to get into it...

    Nasier // Nasier
    Nasier hurt Goritsi via Unrelenting (Primary Defense Stat)(Major)
    Nasier hurt Teknes via Sundering (Secondary Offense Stat)(Minor)
    Nasier hurt Shael Han via ignore Feedback (Primary Defense Stat)(Minor)
    Nasier hurt Hadross via Sundering (Secondary Defense Stat)(Minor)


    Shael Han hurt Nasier via Feint (Primary Offense Stat)(Major)
    Shael Han hurt Goritsi via Suppression (Minor Offense Stat versus Secondary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Shael Han hurt Teknes via Feint and Suppression (Secondary Defense Stat in both cases) (Minor)
    Shael Han hurt Shael Han via Suppression (Minor Offense Stat versus Primary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Shael Han hurt Hadross via Suppression (Minor Offense Stat versus Tertiary Defense Stat) (Minor)


    Goritsi hurt Nasier via Follow-Through (Major Offense Stat versus Secondary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Gortisi // Goritsi
    Goritsi hurt Teknes via Sundering (Secondary Offensive Stat versus Primary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Goritsi hurt Hadross via Follow-Through (Major Offense Stat versus Primary Defense Stat) (Major)
    Goritsi hurt Shael Han via Unrelenting (Minor Offense versus Minor Defense Stat) (Minor)


    Teknes hurt Nasier via Follow-Through (Minor Offense Stat versus Minor Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Teknes hurt Goritsi via Suppression (Major Offense Stat versus Minor Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Teknes // Teknes
    Teknes hurt Hadross via Sundering and Suppression (Major/Minor Offense Stat versus Minor Defense Stats) (Minor)
    Teknes hurt Shael Han via Suppression (Major Offense Stat versus Major Defense Stat) (Major)


    Hadross hurt Nasier via Will Attacks (Offensive Ability versus lower Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Hadross hurt Goritsi via Sundering (Major Offense Stat versus Tertiary Defense Stat) (Minor)
    Hadross hurt Teknes via Sundering (Major Offense Stat versus Major Defense Stat) (Major)
    Hadross // Hadross
    Hadross hurt Shael Han via Will Attacks (Offensive Ability //negate// Secondary Defense Abilities) (Minor)



    Of course that's just a quick look, but I really don't like hearing someone blanket and go "It's just rock paper scissors" off of a comment posted to discuss another point.
    My post was not in response to someone saying Rock Paper Scissors. It was from your statement "each faction has another that counters a lot of their defensive abilities". That statement doesn't help your Rock Paper Scissors argument. And while I'm sure it's definitely not that simple. The fact that there obviously does seem to be one faction that has a destinct advantage against one specific faction each, is not an encouraging thought when it comes to balance. Maybe once more units are introduced this wont be as pronounced.

  19. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    Of course that's just a quick look, but I really don't like hearing someone blanket and go "It's just rock paper scissors" off of a comment posted to discuss another point.
    To be fair, your comment did make it sound that way. As for your charts above, they are handy when comparing across faction. The one major point I would make though is that Sundering, Suppression, Feint, Follow-Through and Unrelenting generally only impact a single slot on the defense table, though sometimes 2 slots, where-as Magic ignores ALL parry, making it far more effective then any of the others by comparison. I realize that this is a simplification since many of the defenses out there have 2 or less parries, but that is not the case for every unit out there.

    ninja'd by Joshuar56

  20. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Swan View Post
    To be fair, your comment did make it sound that way. As for your charts above, they are handy when comparing across faction. The one major point I would make though is that Sundering, Suppression, Feint, Follow-Through and Unrelenting generally only impact a single slot on the defense table, though sometimes 2 slots, where-as Magic ignores ALL parry, making it far more effective then any of the others by comparison. I realize that this is a simplification since many of the defenses out there have 2 or less parries, but that is not the case for every unit out there.

    ninja'd by Joshuar56
    Magic is also the rarest effect in the game, with no single faction having a predominately Magic based attack flow- it's mainly limited to Specialists and in some cases Leaders, but mainly Specialists. Closest would be Shael han, via the effects of the Hammer of Heaven (a specialist) and even then it's not an auto effect or anything built in- it can be killed and stopped.

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