New Nasier Card Discussion! - Page 3
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Thread: New Nasier Card Discussion!

  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    Magic is also the rarest effect in the game, with no single faction having a predominately Magic based attack flow- it's mainly limited to Specialists and in some cases Leaders, but mainly Specialists. Closest would be Shael han, via the effects of the Hammer of Heaven (a specialist) and even then it's not an auto effect or anything built in- it can be killed and stopped.
    Or the Shael Han Keeper which gives it to the Legionnaires, or the Wrath which have it built in. But in most respects I agree, but since the all of the Shael han infantry is a hard counter to the Ashmen, it needed to be pointed out

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by joshuar56 View Post
    My post was not in response to someone saying Rock Paper Scissors. It was from your statement "each faction has another that counters a lot of their defensive abilities". That statement doesn't help your Rock Paper Scissors argument. And while I'm sure it's definitely not that simple. The fact that there obviously does seem to be one faction that has a destinct advantage against one specific faction each, is not an encouraging thought when it comes to balance. Maybe once more units are introduced this wont be as pronounced.

    To be fair many game systems have had certain factions counter other factions in a rock paper scissors fashion and still have game balance between said factions. If you wan't perfect balance, then you might as well play a "one faction game" with the exact type and number of troops. Sounds boring to me.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick_ View Post
    To be fair many game systems have had certain factions counter other factions in a rock paper scissors fashion and still have game balance between said factions. If you wan't perfect balance, then you might as well play a "one faction game" with the exact type and number of troops. Sounds boring to me.
    Could you please give me an example that works?

    Also, there is a difference between soft counters and hard counters.

    A soft counter is taking a ranged army against a melee army. Or taking an ambush army against a ranged army. This is not nescessary a single faction, as mostly there are multiple factions that can pull it off easily. And most of the time, it also gives you a weakness.

    A hard counter is a faction that has a widespread bonus against your faction, but is still viable against others. Clear Example from 40k: Grey Knights vs Daemons. Facing a hard counter isn't fun and is perceived as unfair.

    No need to go for single faction, but every models should be able to defend against each attack type. Ashmen are the only models that completely shut down when faced with magic. As Shael Han has a lot of magic (Three models don't have a magic attack, but two of them can get it) Ashmen become a bad choice against them.

    Back to topic.

    Mainly, there is no tradeoff when taking magic against the Ashmen, as they can't generate backlash, and are especially weak to it.

    I still think that having 4x parry is not that good, and having 4x dodge is better, because there isn't an ability that ignores all these dodges, and most models ingore only 1 of these dodges, meaning you still have 3 available.

    I can slowly see the merits of the ashmen, but I still think they got the short stick compared to most infantry.

    Lastly, Ace is bad. It's an ability that requires the opponent to 1) Not use magic. 2) Use at least 2 dice. 3) Stand in a 1-on-1 engagement. Then you have got a 16% chance to pull it off. Which is the same as 2 counterattacks and not dying.

  4. #44

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    Just a quick question, when a ashmen is 1v1 and gets its reaction attack, does it benefit from duelist?

  5. #45

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    Yes, Ace (though why you call is Ace is a mystery to me) is situational, and yes it will not happen often, though my numbers say that it will trigger 32% of the time on a 2 die attack against the Ashmen. But Ashmen are solid without Ace, all Ace does is give opponents rank 2 infantry a pause when they consider engaging the Ashmen. It is a slight bump to the Ashmen, which makes them slightly better with it then without it. It is not their defining ability - that would be duelist.

    And as far as I can tell, yes, Duelist would work with counter attack, when engaged 1x1

  6. #46

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    Yes an Ashmen Swordsman will still benefit from Duelist when his [Reaction] is triggered.

    In regards to AWC - 1. Whether an attack is Magic or not makes no difference in triggering this ability. If I am engaged 1v1 with an Ashmen Swordsman and I kill him with a Magic attack, his AWC will trigger. 2. I can kill an Ashmen Swordsman with a one die attack, if we are 1v1 AWC will trigger. 3. There are a lot of times when I don't have the choice but to stand with an Ashmen Swordsman 1v1. If my opponent engages my front line with Ashmen, I cannot disengage and engage another Ashmen. This is even harder to control with the Hakars training. Ashmen Swordsman excel at controlling a line and fading away from it.

    AWC has caused me a ton of grief in playtest and is in opinion one of the more annoying aspects of these guys, interrupting my game plan by ruining my positioning, taking key models and really causing a serious bit of disruption just when I don't need it.
    Throne of Angels

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  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Derek View Post
    Yes an Ashmen Swordsman will still benefit from Duelist when his [Reaction] is triggered.

    In regards to AWC - 1. Whether an attack is Magic or not makes no difference in triggering this ability. If I am engaged 1v1 with an Ashmen Swordsman and I kill him with a Magic attack, his AWC will trigger. 2. I can kill an Ashmen Swordsman with a one die attack, if we are 1v1 AWC will trigger. 3. There are a lot of times when I don't have the choice but to stand with an Ashmen Swordsman 1v1. If my opponent engages my front line with Ashmen, I cannot disengage and engage another Ashmen. This is even harder to control with the Hakars training. Ashmen Swordsman excel at controlling a line and fading away from it.

    AWC has caused me a ton of grief in playtest and is in opinion one of the more annoying aspects of these guys, interrupting my game plan by ruining my positioning, taking key models and really causing a serious bit of disruption just when I don't need it.
    OK, now I need a better explanation

    1) Magic changes all Parry on a card to Strike. Since the card has no parry how can Reactivate (Parry) ever occur vs a magic attack
    2) AWC only triggers of the Swordsman Dies, so how can it trigger on a 1 die attack, since obviously the one die had to have rolled a strike or an overpower

    I agree with 3

    Thanks for verifying that Duelist works on reactions

  8. #48

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    Currently I am in error as I have just looked at the version of the rules that are on the WoK site for you guys. Right now we are using a addendum to Magic attacks that allows [Reaction] abilities to trigger. We have a couple of updates planned for the coming weeks, I'll verify which rules version is going up and do my best to get it up with the next update.
    Throne of Angels

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    AKA - AngelicOne

  9. #49

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    Derek, thanks for your comments on this stuff. While I still have some concerns, it is - ironically perhaps - reassuring to know that there are still rules we don't yet know about. I kind of suspected that some of the things in the current cards would start to make more sense once we saw the new version rules, and this definitely does.

    (I'm still not convinced that Ashmen are good enough, but I'm willing at this point to be convinced! )

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Derek View Post
    Currently I am in error as I have just looked at the version of the rules that are on the WoK site for you guys. Right now we are using a addendum to Magic attacks that allows [Reaction] abilities to trigger. We have a couple of updates planned for the coming weeks, I'll verify which rules version is going up and do my best to get it up with the next update.
    (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
    That changes things. (A little bit, but it does)

    I will refrain from commenting/testing until additional rules are posted.

  11. #51

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    Heres another question, if 2 ashmen where in same group activation, once goes into melee 1v1 and benefits from duelist, if the second ashmen went b2b with the attacking ashman and used the assist action. Does the actacking ashman still benefit from duelist?

  12. #52

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    Hey James,

    No it would not. The definition of Duelist reads:

    Duelist: When this model is engaged with onlyone enemy model, and no other friendly model is engaging the same model, itgains OffensiveMastery.This ability is ignored if an assist action is used on the model with Duelist.

    The last sentence specifically states the ability is ignored if an assist action is used on the model with Duelist.


    Throne of Angels

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    AKA - AngelicOne

  13. #53

  14. #54

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    Does the Longhorn's Clear a Path action work like Knockback(3), e.g. would it cause a pinball attack if the models that get knocked away hit other models?

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by duke_bonez View Post
    Does the Longhorn's Clear a Path action work like Knockback(3), e.g. would it cause a pinball attack if the models that get knocked away hit other models?
    No, if an ability causes an effect it is noted in it's definition.
    Throne of Angels

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  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by duke_bonez View Post
    Does the Longhorn's Clear a Path action work like Knockback(3), e.g. would it cause a pinball attack if the models that get knocked away hit other models?
    No, it specifically does not cause Knockback for this very reason.

  17. #57

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    I'll be having a better look later tonight but first impressions are fairly positive.

    Ashmen - are a bit better, the Hakar's Inspire is IMO still trying to send them in an odd direction, but at least it's a substantial benefit now. Also combines well with AWC so there's a real risk to engaging the Ashmen Swordsmen. Giving your opponent hard choices is what wins games, after all! (That and having my dice luck ... )

    Pelegarth - not a change as such but the clarification to Shield Bash is a shame. Even with the Howl's Inspire they're just not that good offensively. It was the two attacks (that I wrongly thought they had!) that made them great. As is, they're reasonably tough to kill, not terribly impressive offensively, and have a nice utility slamback action.

    Overall they're looking OK. Not great maybe but at the very least balanced within the faction so there's a reason to take both.

    Greathorn - ZOMG. This guy was already amazing and you made him better?! Now seriously competes with the Blood Engine for best monster. I was actually joking before when I said he should have Sundering and you give him TWO hit-enhancers, AND more melee dice, AND a hit-enhancer on his Immolate spell. Just awesome. Still on the fragile side, but that's fine when he's as killy as this.

  18. #58

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    The great horn is an impressive looking model but I keep finding myself wanting to use either Bloodchild for ranged domination as his speed size and buff aura are really compelling as is the ability to hit extra targets.


    I also find my self drawn to the longhorn/rathor combination as the Rathors aura combined with smart use of the longhorns clear a path action can really setup a devastating activation for appropriately placed ashmen while also assassinating a key opponent.


    The great horn just seems to be delightfully Killy.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teleologica View Post
    Greathorn - ZOMG. This guy was already amazing and you made him better?! Now seriously competes with the Blood Engine for best monster. I was actually joking before when I said he should have Sundering and you give him TWO hit-enhancers, AND more melee dice, AND a hit-enhancer on his Immolate spell. Just awesome. Still on the fragile side, but that's fine when he's as killy as this.
    Actually you may want to read his Explosive Conflagration again, it actually got balanced. Before against 1 target you got 1 Die, Against 2 targets you got a 2 Die attack against each target, and if there were 3 targets you got a 3 Die attack against each target. Now you get 1 Die, + 1 to 3 more dice (so for 3 targets you would get 4 dice) that have to be split among the targets, so basically you will get 1 2 Die attack, and 1 or 2; 1 Die attacks. Which kind of makes sense, since 9 dice were pretty brutal, and now even 4 dice with Sundering and Unrelenting will still be pretty brutal

  20. #60

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    Oh. Huh. Yeah, misread that. So it's better against a single target a d progressively a bit worse against more. But still very good really. Thanks for the catch.

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