Weekend Battle Report - Page 2
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 47

Thread: Weekend Battle Report

  1. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xavarir View Post
    This seems to be right in the middle of the two scenarios. It makes sense to resolve all attacks by target. My discussion was more about the timing of reaction abilities during the resolve phase which hardly applies to War Dancers anyways.

    It's going to get confusing trying to keep track of 18 War Dancers jumping around and which ones are hitting what enemy units.
    Well the good news is that at most you only have to worry about 9

    Also, we found it easiest to place a die by each model showing the # of attacks hitting that model. This way we just kept increasing it by 2 each time that guy was crossed by another Dancer. At the end, we rolled that many dice to hit the model.

  2. #22

    Default

    So where do we start the petition for a change to Deadly Flourish? I'm not looking forward to being hit by 18 dice in some crazy star shaped, vampire jumping, shenanigans.

  3. #23

    Default

    I am with you there, I wasn't so crazy to see it when it hit my troops

    I figure that we started the petition already, CMoN has been very good at reading their forums, and I am sure that they are looking at what we are discussing. Will be good to see what if any changes are made next round, and I would love to see one of the Devs chime in here.

  4. #24

    Default

    Defender Raeth Sevisk for president 2014! His Stick In and Hold the Line auras both do a major job of countering the War Dancers. If the Linesmen manage to engage the War Dancer's they won't be able to use Deadly Flourish (they can't disengage due to Stick In). If the Linesmen stay in a group spaced 29mm apart, with the Union Worker's following behind, the War Dancers won't be be able to Deadly Flourish as their is no room to land. The Goritsi can't drag them apart with Come Hither/Inspire due to the Hold the Line aura. If the War Dancers are forced to straight melee the advancing line of Linesmen surely they will be torn to shreds.

    Perhaps the match-up you guys played ended up being one of the WORST possible combinations for Teknes. Seems Teknes picked all the wrong units for dealing with War Dancers. Galvanic Defenders, The Ironward, or Defender Raeth surely would have made the game much different. Of course you have no way of knowing what the opponent will be bringing to the field but the Linesmen/Raeth are durable vs just about anything.
    Last edited by Xavarir; 01-14-2014 at 12:05 PM.

  5. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xavarir View Post
    Defender Raeth Sevisk for president 2014! His Stick In and Hold the Line auras both do a major job of countering the War Dancers. If the Linesmen manage to engage the War Dancer's they won't be able to use Deadly Flourish (they can't disengage due to Stick In). If the Linesmen stay in a group spaced 29mm apart, with the Union Worker's following behind, the War Dancers won't be be able to Deadly Flourish as their is no room to land. The Goritsi can't drag them apart with Come Hither/Inspire due to the Hold the Line aura. If the War Dancers are forced to straight melee the advancing line of Linesmen surely they will be torn to shreds.

    Perhaps the match-up you guys played ended up being one of the WORST possible combinations for Teknes. Seems Teknes picked all the wrong units for dealing with War Dancers. Galvanic Defenders, The Ironward, or Defender Raeth surely would have made the game much different. Of course you have no way of knowing what the opponent will be bringing to the field but the Linesmen/Raeth are durable vs just about anything.
    Bringing either Rank 2 leader would have made a huge difference, and normally I would have went that way, but for this game I truly wanted to see how the Rank 1 leaders stack up. Without the Herald of Blood's inspire, things would have went differently also. I think the Rank 2s bring a huge benefit to the board, but it limited the amount of area that could be covered. I had 3 groupings, left right and center, he had just 2, left and right. There were times were a Wardancer or two got stranded out of command range, but the Teknes never ran into an issue of troops being out of a leaders command range. Next round will have the Ironward on the board to see his impact.

  6. #26

    Default

    Reading through all of the Leaders again, I notice that while setting up your troops to defend against a Wardancer strike is nice, to maintain that style of formation you have to sacrifice Teknes strengths. 3 of the 4 leader's inspire abilities only work when you are in contact with a friendly model, so Teknes naturally groups up, which makes life much easier for the Goritsi to exploit. And even with their ability to flourish, taking out many models at once, I still think that the Teknes can make a good showing on the field of battle, though it is one of the hardest factions for them to face. All in all, the game came down to the final initiative roll. Had that roll gone the other way Teknes would have been waving their Banner's on the field of victory, instead of slogging their way back to Felsker with their heads hanging low.

    If this was truly the worst case matchup of Teknes vs Goritsi, then maybe the mighty Deadly Flourish isn't really as over powered as it felt.

  7. #27

    Default

    Swan, I have found playing with Motivations and Morale fundamentally changes how you will play against other factions. Yesterday I did a quick Intro level battle between Hadross and Nasier to test out the cards and motivations. I have fought several battles using the old cards in a just straight up fight but when you use the motivations to affect morale it really changes it up.

  8. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkendlight View Post
    Swan, I have found playing with Motivations and Morale fundamentally changes how you will play against other factions. Yesterday I did a quick Intro level battle between Hadross and Nasier to test out the cards and motivations. I have fought several battles using the old cards in a just straight up fight but when you use the motivations to affect morale it really changes it up.
    Personally, I like the motivations as it introduces diversity, but on the other hand they seem like a "balancing nightmare". I think it might be fun to randomly assign a motivation to each faction before the game (from the list of eligible ones of course), then build your army to complement the motivation. I understand that the motivations exist to flesh out the lore and such but it seems some faction/motivation combinations would be near impossible to stop. Especially since some units are almost required to counter units of other factions (see this thread about War Dancers vs Teknes Reaction abilities). If some faction/motivation combinations are discovered to be much easier/"better", someone looking to win wouldn't likely pick anything else. Someone looking for a challenge might.

  9. #29

    Default

    So remember you pick motivations after people have chosen their force. This is important as some of the motivations are more advantageous if your opponent has gone for say fewer (but higher lvl) infantry. If you pick a motivation that (and I have been told some new ones are possibly on the way) either ties up troops defending an objective or takes more morale away if you kill those troops (say the War Dancers) it will change how your opponent deploys and uses those troops.

  10. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkendlight View Post
    So remember you pick motivations after people have chosen their force. This is important as some of the motivations are more advantageous if your opponent has gone for say fewer (but higher lvl) infantry. If you pick a motivation that (and I have been told some new ones are possibly on the way) either ties up troops defending an objective or takes more morale away if you kill those troops (say the War Dancers) it will change how your opponent deploys and uses those troops.
    And I agree, but since CMoN has not released the updated Motivations, and the previous motivations have a balance issue, for the moment the best we really have is to test combat style battles. When we get the updated Motivations, we will be testing those out as well

  11. #31

    Default

    I agree with one of the previous posts that a unit requiring a specific counter not to be really overpowered is not balanced. Motivations or not.
    You shouldn't have to be forced to chose a counter unit or a counter motivation when facing a single unit. You should be able to base your motivations and units choice at a strategic level only.

  12. #32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kapharnaum View Post
    I agree with one of the previous posts that a unit requiring a specific counter not to be really overpowered is not balanced. Motivations or not.
    You shouldn't have to be forced to chose a counter unit or a counter motivation when facing a single unit. You should be able to base your motivations and units choice at a strategic level only.
    I think I disagree a little here. Part of the strategy is countering units and motivations. If I'm building a force I need to keep in mind that I need to be able to counter different tactics my opponent will bring to the table, which will include anything from what type of units, which specific unit, and what way he will try to win. Now, I'm not saying that it should work out that I need to bring a specific unit every time I play Goitsi or I have no chance. I mean that in the same way you need to bring "Anti tank" units in 40k, you need to keep in mind that if you don't bring something to deal with units like the War Dancers, it' going to be a rough ride. Possible to win, but more rough than if you had planned better.

    And really, wouldn't making part of that strategy choosing a motivation to counter part of your opponnt's plans help balance out things? If the motivations themselves are fixed, they should add more depth to your plans and strategies and give you ways to enhance your own innate strengths or fill in for your weaknesses.

  13. #33

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueStar View Post
    I think I disagree a little here. Part of the strategy is countering units and motivations. If I'm building a force I need to keep in mind that I need to be able to counter different tactics my opponent will bring to the table, which will include anything from what type of units, which specific unit, and what way he will try to win. Now, I'm not saying that it should work out that I need to bring a specific unit every time I play Goitsi or I have no chance. I mean that in the same way you need to bring "Anti tank" units in 40k, you need to keep in mind that if you don't bring something to deal with units like the War Dancers, it' going to be a rough ride. Possible to win, but more rough than if you had planned better.
    I agree with you that a well balanced force should be able to stand up against just about any army if played properly (playing to your strengths, their weaknesses, etc). But a well balanced Teknes force is going to most likely get chewed up vs. an army of all War Dancers (by the nature of all the reaction abilities being negated by Deadly Flourish). Playing vs. Goritsi as Teknes almost FORCES you to bring along Raeth/Ironward for any hopes of winning vs. War Dancers, just to find out he has an army of all Skorza.......what if the Teknes player doesn't have the Rank 2 leaders? None of the base Teknes units can stand up against an army of War Dancers very well.

    It's when a faction is required to field certain units to have a fighting chance that scares me.

  14. #34

    Default

    I dislike the idea that a game is built on the notion of units countering other units, let alone certain armies being a counter to others.

    If the game's effectively decided by which units I did or didn't bring, why am I even bothering to unpack them? "Did you bring Ice Leapers?" "Yup, all 18 of 'em." "Dang, I didn't bring enough Fire Netters. Good game."

    I'd rather play a game than a meta-game. If I wanted to meta-game I wouldn't be buying and painting miniatures 'cos you can meta-game for free just by writing "18 Ice Leapers" on a piece of paper.

  15. #35

    Default

    All has been quiet on the CMON front lately as well so we have no input from them as to whether or not this is going to be an issue by the end. I have only really been following Teknes and Goritsi units as that is what I have ordered for myself but I imagine these issues currently exist elsewhere.

  16. #36

    Default

    I agree with Xavarir and FMC who far better explained what I have in mind.
    My written french-translated english being too poor to express my point

  17. #37

    Default

    Hey guys, sorry for the delay in responding to this. It's been a busy week full of shiny new things ^_^. So, in regards to this battle, it looks like the war dancers performed quite well. Also this does seem to be a bit of a worst case scenario for that specific Teknes list. However, an army consisting of 18 dancers, while having an admittedly high amount of damage output is still incredibly fragile. Taking into account their 50% hit rate before any special abilities kick in and only 1 wound, it wouldn't take much to snowball this in the other direction. And even though the Ironward may have given you a slight edge against this particular list I still don't really see him as a counter to the dancers. Yes you get to make an attack against whoever just killed one of your units, but you still had to lose a guy in the first place which means at best you're trading even at that point.

    I think it's also important to note that this was just a standard kill mission. With motivations getting thrown in, things become a completely different story. For example, the game darkendlight is referring to. Had we played an ordinary kill mission my force would likely have wiped him out with little to no effort. But because he picked an objective that played to his strengths and limited what I could safely do, he wound up winning handily.

    As to your questions in the original thread. Gregorio's attack would roll separate dice for each target. Yes, if you had 3 models with Offensive Expertise (1) and they generated 2 attacks each, then you would get 6 dice with 3 re-rolls. For the dancers it is easiest to perform their actions individually. You could move them all at the same time and mark the models passed over then roll dice at the end, but I find this cumbersome. Also, performing actions separately does allow you to first use the dancing master's Come Hither to line up a flourish for the other dancers.

    If an Ironward is involved, then going through the actions one model at a time makes things much more simple. In this case, a dancer would move via flourish, perform her attacks on the affected models, and then if any died, one of the surviving units would perform an attack. This would then repeat for the other dancers.

  18. #38

    Default

    Thanks for the reply Curtis!

    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Curtis View Post
    Gregorio's attack would roll separate dice for each target.
    Does this go for all abilities which target multiple units in range? Such as the Zaalak's Unleashed ability, C.A.G.E.'s Galvanic Backlash, etc? You roll separate dice for each target affected?

    I take it from your comments on the power of the War Dancers that they haven't displayed notable balance issues throughout your play testing? The power of the War Dancers has surfaced in a couple of threads now.

  19. #39

    Default

    Correct, a roll should be made for each model affected by any given attack unless stated otherwise.

    And yes, through our playtests the dancers have proven to be balanced for the most part. Aside from a few best-case scenarios (i.e. lots of enemies clustering together) they haven't really shown any signs of being over powered.

  20. #40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xavarir View Post
    Thanks for the reply Curtis!



    Does this go for all abilities which target multiple units in range? Such as the Zaalak's Unleashed ability, C.A.G.E.'s Galvanic Backlash, etc? You roll separate dice for each target affected?

    I take it from your comments on the power of the War Dancers that they haven't displayed notable balance issues throughout your play testing? The power of the War Dancers has surfaced in a couple of threads now.

    Oh War Dancers, how fun you are.

    War Dancers have the highest raw damage output of any Rank 1 Infantry, this is the trade-off for being, by far, the weakest. People want to say the Nasier are glass cannon and cannot survive a charge... I'll point them in the direction of the War Dancers, who will die 50% of the time, and that is before any Defense Chart modifiers are added into the mix. If we're going to compare scenarios that make it so the War Dancers always get the change, always win initiative, always get the positioning they need... Then yes, they are absolutely going to dominate anything they come across... So will every other unit in the game.

    The comments about them being powerful with the Herald of Blood: Sure, they're powerful, as would be expected with a Rank 2 Leader's effects- which to note is a six inch area around the entire board- An area that, if you really don't to deal with then you can avoid. Blindly moving to engage a unit just because it's there will lead to a loss in any game, and when we're talking about a game like Wrath of Kings, one that is grounded in scenario play, then that becomes even more apparent. Again, there is nothing wrong with two players just wanting to clash their models on the field and ignore scenarios all together, but you're also removing a huge strategic element that is incorporated into the very base of the game, more so, you're creating a scenario where the more offensive based armies- Nasier, Goritsi (and of course offensive-focused Hadross, Shael-Han, and Teknes armies) are going to have a bigger advantage.

    But back on the topic of War Dancers. One thing I want to point out here, before I get heavier into it, is a lot of the feedback seems to specifically target their ability to negate [Reaction][X] Abilities. This was a hot-topic all through playtesting, and came very near to being removed. In the end we kept it, but as with everything else, I continue to play around with numbers and debate with myself the strengths and weaknesses of this part of their rule. So, while I will say this now- the basics of the Zeti are not going to change, this specific point may be redone. Throughout testing they have gone through several renditions- anyone who remembers what they used to be knows this; they went from a unit which, I will in my full opinion, say didn't serve a huge purpose in the army. Sure, they could move units around, but in the end that didn't really help anything... Sure, they're dislocated and disrupted now... But when your army is super fragile what does it matter that they've become dislocated when each guy can just move up and kill you? So we had a unit that had no offensive power, no large threat, and a dislocation ability that, while neat, didn't really create a massive amount of turmoil for your opponent... Great. So they needed to be fixed. Once we where going through the faction revamps we wanted to heavily focus them on offensive and movement shenanigans, hence how we arrived at what they currently are.

    They have been tested immensely since they were revamped in such a larger way than a lot of the other units in the game. Do I think there is anything wrong with them? No, honestly I don't. I feel that having 1 game against them, sans scenarios, playing against an army that is defensive in nature (going back to the killing-field-favoring-offense point) then Teknes went into the game with a disadvantage. Also, saying that Teknes needed the Ironward to stand against them is a comment that I have to call out. Would his abilities help? Yes, but having 1 unit is not going to assure victory or defeat against any specific army- no single unit in the game is that powerful, regardless of Inspires or Training or whatnot.

    What do I personally think Teknes can do against the War Dancers to beat them? Well let's go through each of the units in the army and see, just for comparison sake:


    Galvanic Defender
    The buffer of the army, and while he does not carry a specific counter to the War Dancers themselves he has two effects that are going to hurt them: Giving Strong Will to those around him (which is going to seriously dampen the Come Hither and Compel abilities of both the Herald of Blood and Dancing Master) and having a 15" threat range Magic attack, meaning he can almost freely move and snipe whatever War Dancer (or leader) he doesn't like. Given the ease in which the Zeti are hit this is going to add up quickly. Yes, he could get Backlashed, but his Will is high enough to mitigate this.

    The Zaalak
    Straight up faster than the Zeti unless clever positioning is used (he has an 8" threat range, while they can Flourish up to 9" (remember the 2" his base takes up, meaning they'd have to come at him at an angle), and with two attacks he is going to kill a Zeti on offense.

    Sorik the Unfinished
    Rank 2 Specialist, this guy has a 12" threat range with his Galvanic Lightning attack, and each attack is near guaranteed to kill a War Dancer as they have a built in 50% hit ratio which is now being lowered even further (being increased to a staggering 70%), not only that but his Ward ability means they're going to be hitting your guys even less of the time (with the Linemen, for example, now only being hit 20% of the time per attack, and the Piggies moving to a, while not impressive, 40%, but factoring in 2 wounds each and they stand a good chance of not being killed).

    CAGE
    This guy will absolutely decimate the War Dancers with his 2" AoE that kills a War Dancer 60% of the time on each attack. Honestly just fearlessly march this guy into their ranks and let them deal with him- Resilience 2 already nails the Deadly Flourish ability as this effect is a Special Action, not an attack, thus each is resolving by itself, not combining like the standard Combined Attacks. Even if you don't engage them right away, and just sprint up into combat, they'll have to focus their forces on dealing with him by normal attacks (meaning he's going to counter each one of them and probably kill a lot more) or he'll just blow up next turn anyway. Honestly the Zeti player should fear the CAGE immensely as they don't have a solid answer for him and should rely more on mobility to counter him.

    Union Workers
    They're hit 50% of the time and have two wounds, to securely kill these guys you're going to need to focus 2+ War Dancers on each one, and with the ability to space them out in a 6" bubble around their leader its going to take a lot of War Dancers to take them down. If you don't its going to hurt a lot- even without Pain Fueled we're still looking at the basic 50% hit on the Dancers. Did you wound one once and trigger Pain Fueled? Well now he has two attacks and Unstoppable(1), meaning he can engage 2 Dancers and have a 60% chance to kill each of them- 2 for 1 tradeoff there, or almost certain success at killing one if they just wanted to focus.

    Union Boss
    Of course with the Union Workers there could always be a Union Boss there (when wouldn't there be?) who can also Whip Them Into Frenzy and cause the above scenario without them being wounded to begin with. His Inspire is nice, but almost unneeded in this situation given the already high chance of a Union Worker killing a War Dancer in a straight up fight. More so, clustering isn't what we're going for in countering the Zeti, so why risk stacking unneeded buffs when the plain option of hitting them in the head will do?


    The Ironward
    So this makes things interesting as with his Primal Surge ability the Union Workers can advance up 7" inches, get Surged, moving another 2" and then perform their attack action- giving them just as much threat range as a full War Dancer flourish. Ignoring that, we have his ability to remove any Overs from the Union Workers, thus further bolstering the above comments about their counter-charge/need to be ganged up on. Spotting once more what I said about the CAGE we also have another Resilience 2 model here, something the Zeti hate, but with the added benefit of having three attacks, each killing a Zeti 60% of the time.

    Defender Linemen
    So here we get to the first unit in the Teknes army that doesn't have an easy counter to the War Dancers. This comes back to the earlier comment in the War Dancers negating Reaction(x) abilities. Here they'll need to reinforce the Pigs, making use of their Rescue maneuver or acting as a secondary counter-charge unit for when the front lines are crushed... Or just move about and focus on objectives while someone else is dealing with the War Dancers. In a vacuum yes, these guys are going to get hurt, a lot, buy the War Dancers, but games aren't played in vacuums or 1 unit vs. 1 unit, or at least you shouldn't be trying to do so knowing the strengths of the opposing force and the weaknesses of your own.

    Lineman Controller
    This guy suffers from the above listed but has a few counters himself, namely the extra survivability imparted on him by Defensive Expertise(1) and the fact he has a Knockback attack, which can target up to 2 Zeti and force them back into others- once again calling to the low survivability of the Dancers, this pinball maneuver is something they should actually fear.

    Raeth Sevisk
    His Toggle straight up locks down War Dancers, leaving them to deal with you on your terms (and subjecting them to Counter Attack(x) while we're at it). In addition his Hold the Line effect outright stops Come Hither and the Inspire of the Herald of Blood, outright shutting them down. So while the Linemen themselves have no easy answer for the War Dancers, when combined with their leaders they absolutely do.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Privacy Policy  |   Terms and Conditions  |   Contact Us  |   The Legion


Copyright © 2001-2018 CMON Inc.

-->