Question about Parman
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Thread: Question about Parman

  1. #1

    Default Question about Parman

    First off, I'd like to apologize if this question's already been covered - but maybe it can make its way into the FAQ:

    Question: Can Parman's Rapid Assault Buff be used twice in a player's Combat Phase turn?

    For example:

    Round1: Deploy Parman and a Rocket Bike:
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    Then use Rapid Assault (3) to move both units forward 3 grids:
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    Round 2: Deploy a Hammer Pounder. In the Combat Phase Rapid Assault the Rocket Bike forward three grids, and Rapid Assault Parman back to the Hammer Pounder:
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    The Question is: Can the Hammer Pounder utilize Parman's buff and also Rapid Assault 3 gids forward?
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    Hope these images are large enough!

    It's an interesting tactic, because the following turn Parman could RA another Unit then RA to the Hammer Pounder.

    Is this generally how people use him?
    Rivet Wars Scenario Editor - http://www.tehill.net/RivetWars

  2. #2

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    I think I remember someone saying that his buff "actives" when he would be able to use it, so because he moved he's not able use it again and neither would units in the new square. I could be wrong though because I can't remember when or where I saw that.

  3. #3

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    The scenario in the opening paragraph is totally legit. We heard it straight from the mouth of Ted awhile back. Possibly in the FAQ thread? I still don't plan to use him this way, because in my mind, it's not an assault (rapid or otherwise) if Parman doesn't actually attack.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by donnbobhardy View Post
    The scenario in the opening paragraph is totally legit. We heard it straight from the mouth of Ted awhile back. Possibly in the FAQ thread? I still don't plan to use him this way, because in my mind, it's not an assault (rapid or otherwise) if Parman doesn't actually attack.
    Totally agree

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by donnbobhardy View Post
    The scenario in the opening paragraph is totally legit. We heard it straight from the mouth of Ted awhile back. Possibly in the FAQ thread? I still don't plan to use him this way, because in my mind, it's not an assault (rapid or otherwise) if Parman doesn't actually attack.
    Agreed, I believe he's broken used this way, a Rapid Assault should end in an attack as it's used during the Attack Phase and you have to have a legal target to attack in the Attack phase.

  6. #6

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    I tend to agree expect the FAQ contains:

    Q - Can a unit use Rapid Assault even if it doesn’t attack anything during its activation?
    A - Yes, Rapid Assault allows a unit to move before attacking, but they don’t have to necessarily
    attack.
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  7. #7

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    Sorry to post again, but that introduces another question.

    If an enemy unit could be attacked after each RA, would this maneuver be legitimate?
    Rivet Wars Scenario Editor - http://www.tehill.net/RivetWars

  8. #8

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    That's why I do not like that ruling. Introduces more doubts than certainties.

    That FAQ sounds like:
    Q: Doc, when do I have to take the pill?
    A: You have to take the pill before lunch, but you don't have to necessarily have lunch.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decar View Post
    Sorry to post again, but that introduces another question.

    If an enemy unit could be attacked after each RA, would this maneuver be legitimate?
    Officially yes as you don't have to attack, but the way we play it, for a model to be able to move with RA it has to attack. This isn't likely to happen in round 2 with Parman galloping back to his own baseline.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by donnbobhardy View Post
    it's not an assault (rapid or otherwise) if Parman doesn't actually attack.
    This is true, rapid assault can only be used following an attack. HOWEVER: I believe when discussing buffs it is said in the rules that buffs are in play at the end of the deployment phase, starting the combat phase. it means that Parman can not buff two grid worth of units, I do believe. They also must be used at the same time, so Parmin moved into a new grid wouldn't gain it again.
    ~Lieutenant Nathaniel Flint of the Landship Scorpios


  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by comedianmasta View Post
    This is true, rapid assault can only be used following an attack. HOWEVER: I believe when discussing buffs it is said in the rules that buffs are in play at the end of the deployment phase, starting the combat phase. it means that Parman can not buff two grid worth of units, I do believe. They also must be used at the same time, so Parmin moved into a new grid wouldn't gain it again.
    Both statements you made are the exact opposite of the official statement from Ted. Officially, Parman does not have to attack to use Rapid Assault and units in both the new and old zone still get the buff. In any games that I play, Rapid Assault will require an assault.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by comedianmasta View Post
    This is true, rapid assault can only be used following an attack. HOWEVER: I believe when discussing buffs it is said in the rules that buffs are in play at the end of the deployment phase, starting the combat phase. it means that Parman can not buff two grid worth of units, I do believe. They also must be used at the same time, so Parmin moved into a new grid wouldn't gain it again.
    Hang on - RA can be used without an attack according to the FAQ. Here's the section on Buffs from the manual:

    • Buffs
    Buffs are bonuses that some units possess
    and can confer to other units in their grid.
    A unit with a buff, and any units in the
    same grid as that unit, always have that
    buff. A unit activating in a grid with a buff
    that moves out of that grid retains the buff
    until the end of its activation.

    So I don't think these rules prevent this maneuver.

    Also buffs are checked during Combat and Movement Phases in "Round Summary", this means Deployment phases are not used. The problem with this approach is what happens if Parman RA's himself or another into a grid that contains a unit that also has a Buff. This is likely to happen in Wave 2. Are you saying, because the buff was not in play during the Deployment Phase it cannot take effect? - this doesn't seem right and could be confusing.

    I see this moving forward in the following ways:

    1) Ted and the powers-that-be thinks this is a legitimate Maneuver (I'll coin the name Hill-RA Maneuver) - and it gets FAQ'd
    2) Ted and Co maintain RA can be used without attacking (as per FAQ), but in particular RA buffs cannot be invoked in more than one grid per combat phase. This leaves rooms for other buffs coming in Wave Two to still function. Perhaps a better way to phrase it is: RA Buffs can only be applied to units in a grid at the start of the combat phase.
    3) Ted and Co update the FAQ to ensure RA must only be used when attacking and that RA buffs cannot be invoked in more that one grid....etc.

    The general recommendation from the forum seems to be 3; however 2 is probably the most straight-forward to implement as some people won't have updated their FAQs and this causes confusion. I quite like Option 1 because it embeds a level of complexity and strategy into the simple rules of play and it seems the most flexible; however it's clearly going to be moving the front lines well into Blight territory when executed.

    Thanks for the input, everyone - hopefully we'll get an official stance soon

    There's probably one more set of questions on this: When a unit activates Parman's RA Buff does: Parman have to use RA also (or can he stay in the grid) & if so do they have to move to the same grid?

    Tom
    Rivet Wars Scenario Editor - http://www.tehill.net/RivetWars

  13. #13

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    I found the original post - It seems a decision has yet to be made - how exciting!

    http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...=Rapid+Assault
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  14. #14

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    This is from the FAQ:

    Q - Can a unit use Rapid Assault even if it doesn’t attack anything during its activation?
    A - Yes, Rapid Assault allows a unit to move before attacking, but they don’t have to necessarily
    attack.

    So that part at least has already been ruled on. I'm pretty sure the part about buffs has as well, but I'm not sure where.

  15. #15

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    Yep donnbobhardy - I hope this doesn't change - it really adds a diversity to the factions. At the end of the day if you wanted perfectly balanced sides play blight vs blight or allies vs allies; it seems to differentiate the play styles of each faction.

    Like I said before I'm keen on this rule due to the simplicity - but I've not played enough with the rule being activated - It certainly makes Parman a formidable unit and it also stops Parman remaining at the back-line and never getting shot at.

    If players don't like various permutations on this rule they can always play with House Rules.

    Thank again
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  16. #16

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    Parman! He is a very interesting unit and has been the focus of much discussion. I think we should figure this out here so there's no more uncertainty. Part of the uncertainty has been us (me) not making a bullet proof ruling.

    @Decar - The example you show above is legal as things stand now. But I think that goes against the spirit of what Parman and Rapid Assault are about. @Hithero has voiced his concerns several times in a positive constructive way and I tend to agree with much of what he has voiced. Since the game's release it's been good to see a lot of games played by many people and in many different ways and to hear feedback on Parman in particular. Here's my thinking.

    1-The Parman situation should be resolved in a elegant way. That to me means touching as few other rules as possible.
    2-The way buffs work will not change or have an exception. If you activate a grid and there is a "buffing" unit in that grid, then all units activating get that buff.
    3-Requiring rapid assault to conclude in an actual attack/assault seems the easiest to implement, stays true to the theme and stops Parman from being a bus driver for other units. Parman was never meant to be a springboard for other units. Dora Rollen has that power or Brasseldun with here underground transport powers.

    So my thought would be to require that using RAPID ASSAULT requires a unit to target and attack an occupied grid. The issue of targeting an empty grid came up with gas attacks so it needs to be an occupied grid. This would mean an update to the FAQ, probably post CMoN Expo (But this change might not happen for various reasons). Btw, I REALLY appreciate how constructive this community has been in the feedback.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by Ted Terranova; 04-28-2014 at 04:20 PM.

  17. #17

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    Ted, thank you so much for the feedback; I agree it seems like a misuse of Parman's skill; it felt like a rule-bend when I first thought of it.

    I definitely feel what you've said is the best approach to take and have no reservations with the ruling - I had previously assumed Rapid Assault could only be used with an attack prior to the FAQ because this seemed like the most logical implementation for the rule.

    The wording in the rule-book for those interested is: "When a unit with this ability activates during the Combat Phase, it may perform a move of X movement points before attacking"

    I think this is even more true if as you've said, springboarding is a different skill which we will see in the wave 2.

    I think this does still leave a possibility; which is now far less likely and I think it's still in the spirit of the fight:

    Parman starts in a grid with a Hammer Pounder. The Grid activates and the Hammer Pounder RAs and attacks an infantry; Parman RAs into a grid with a rocket bike and attacks a Blight Unit. Can the Rocket Bike's grid now be activated and make use of Parman so it still Rapid Assault and attack another Blight Unit?

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    If we're keen to lock this down, one final thing springs to mind: Is an attack of 0-dice still considered an attack (eg: could a Rifeman Rapid Assault a Monowheel?)
    (EDIT Sorry I answered this by reading the rules again: "The first number is the number of attacks that unit can make." So the answer is No)

    I think it's brilliant we are able to ask these questions on the forum and explore all the effects, I think it's a very good we can even consider patching with the community-consensus in mind rather than relying on slight permutations of House Rules.

    Also, I've got this image that Parman was a coach-driver prior to the war - "Parman's Coaches --- Rapid Transport".

    Thanks again for all the input!
    Last edited by Decar; 04-28-2014 at 04:13 PM.
    Rivet Wars Scenario Editor - http://www.tehill.net/RivetWars

  18. #18

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    Did anyone mention common sense and fair play in this thread? I have been around the table top scene long enough to know that use of a unit like first suggested only requires two things in our small local gaming group. 1)A beard of sufficient length to trail at least several feet behind them. 2) a nice comfy mattress placed outside a window of the players choice, because that's the way they will be leaving the room!

    lets try and keep the silliness to a minimum people! Remember its the way you play, not the way you win that's important!

    PS. I agree Ted, an actual attack should be required as in the spirit of the action, it also requires much more forward thinking on behalf of the players and so in my head much more fun! I would also suggest abilities such as Parman's can only be used once per turn, least ways that's how we have and will play it
    Last edited by Bulldoguk; 04-28-2014 at 04:24 PM.

  19. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decar View Post

    Parman starts in a grid with a Hammer Pounder. The Grid activates and the Hammer Pounder RAs and attacks an infantry; Parman RAs into a grid with a rocket bike and attacks a Blight Unit. Can the Rocket Bike's grid now be activated and make use of Parman so it still Rapid Assault and attack another Blight Unit?

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    Yes, you activate grid 1 and both units use Rapid Assault, then u activate grid 2 in which there is the Rocket Bike buffed by Parman, and only the Bike can Rapid Assault.

    The Rapid Assault Buff can be very strong, but if u want to use it at its full potential you have to expose the Hero, giving the opponent an opportunity to score one Victory Point

    @Bulldoguk: I'm not seeing any lack of fairplay and common sense in this tread, but maybe I offended someone with my googlish english, and I apologize.

  20. #20

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    It's an unpopular opinion I have on this, prepare yourselves.

    Parman is fine the way he is. Yes, he is borderline OP, and his ability can be used to great effect when the strategic objectives are arranged in a particular way. I predominately play Blight, but I think any change to Parman needs to be done carefully, because I thnk the Allies need him to be able to give pounders a chance vs Jager early in a game.

    First, I like rapid assault not requiring an attack. In military jargon, you could assault a hilltop position and find it empty and have shot nothing. In military speak, the term can just as easily describe decisive or aggressive movement. The phrase "before attacking" in the rule has been cited as reason to require an attack, but I can't agree. I believe that is meant to convey that rapid assault allows movement in the combat phase which is regularly prohibited until the movement phase. Making RA require an attack leads to, "can I attack an empty grid (to allow the move)?" If the answer to that question is yes, then effectively you haven't changed the practical use of his current double buff. If the answer is now no to make having RA require an attack actually be an effective change, then you've just made Baron Gaston's gas attack much less effective.

    Nope, requiring RA to end in an attack is not the way to change Parman if it must be done, in my opinion there is a better way.

    Rapid Assault is really just moving in the combat phase. That's the common benefit that is applied to any unit that starts with it or gains it by buff or card play. The part that varies is the number in parentheses. Everything but Parman's buff gives 2 movement, iirc. His gives three. That's precedent for changing the grids his buff grants because it's already the variable part of RA and changing it doesn't require other established rules to change.

    But what do we make it? I'd propose Buff: Rapid Assault (x) where x is the original movement of the unit receiving the buff. I like this for a lot of reasons.

    1. Does not require changing other established rules.
    2. Because of #1 does not devalue the Baron.
    3. Does not allow riflemen to run faster on open terrain than duckboard. Which is only benefit of trench because they provide no cover.
    4. Keeps Parman mobile and able to double buff.
    5. Reduces threat range of newly deployed pounders to 5 grids from deployment row from the current and wicked 7 grids.
    6. Maintains some means of pounders attacking from outside of Jager's range.
    7. Maintains some means of riflemen attacking from outside of panzerfausts range.
    8. Blah blah rocket bikes blah blah Sturmpanzer's range.
    9. It gets Parman off the back row. If you want to rapid assault riflemen in no man's land Parman might actually have to be at risk, which almost never happens currently if the Allied player is savvy.
    10. Thematically it makes sense to me. An inspiring leader could far more likely motivate men to take the initiative and act, than actually increase their ability to run, or the maximum speed of a tracked bike.

    Now as I'm writing this I recall Parman's regular movement to be 3. So the X value keeps him mobile as ever and tactically flexible on his steed.
    If I'm wrong it could be (3/X) so he remains fast.

    Hope I've helped with my 2 cents worth.

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