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Thread: So...6 weeks ago...

  1. #21

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    It is wrong to say they do not need to communicate to the backers anymore. Only to none backers.
    Every backer has friends who communicate about the minis, game and kickstarter. If the backers are happy, they can get new backers for CMON or every other company running projects. But I know what Swan means and Swan is only showing one possible extreme.

    Saying that Kickstarters like WoK are only preorders do know nothing about funding and companies resources. Especially in the miniature sector is no mass market. There is no big tabletop company. All companies are small and have seldom many peoples. Even GW had several times big problems during the years and are lucky to be still on the market. There are big risks funding a project not with crowd funding. Crowdfunding is the best possibility to get for company money to produce a product. It can work without crowdfunding, but we would had only two factions for few years with less minis and every few years a new faction. And the possibility that still few players have found WoK. There are few Kickstarters sometimes looking like preorders, but CMON is not really one of them.

  2. #22

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    Well there is a some people think it feels like a preorder, maybe because their whole kickstarter page feels like one big Commercial?
    90% of the text is about what you can get. get this get that, this Money to get all the factions etc. And of course, the tiniest part is "risk and challenges"

    Oh and in the risk and challanges it says this "we are always happy to refund pledges if for some totally unforeseen reason the game can't be delivered at all."
    So basicly they dont even need the money for the production? They cant refund money they already used can they?

    and sentences like these "Combining the talents of the best artists, sculptors and writers in the business, Wrath of Kings has been in development for over 3 years and now is almost ready to launch..."

    Their page screams pre-order, maybe you should reread it again

  3. #23
    Newbie, please be gentle GhiaccioloPainting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swan View Post
    I am just confused by the entitlement people are feeling over an ESTIMATED delivery date. The initial ESTIMATED date was May, the new ESTIMATED date was September, then we were told of a new delay and we have not been given a new ESTIMATED date, but even so, we are 1 day after the previous ESTIMATED date. What is all of this angst and confusion about? When they have new information about shipping they will tell us, but does it really make sense to start calling this a "cash-grabbing experience" when CMoN has a solid track record for completing their Kickstarters, they are still putting out updates, and are still active answering questions in the forums.
    In my country "customers are always right"...when i'm dishing out my money into a commercial buisness i'm entitled to ask for professional and top-notch service. Also the answer to you confusion is right in the KS terms of service u'v just posted: if they keep to be unclear about the shipping date, they've basically denied our right to know if delay was excessive or not! that's an information they cannot hide or procrastinate forever, otherwise seems like a scam to me and to the very KS premise.
    To be fair: i know cmon is offering a refund by now, so that's ok from them.

    I don't know about other kickstarters from this company (or others), but this one seriously have problems: in facts,here comes another "good news....everyone!"

    "The delay in Update 94 (printing) was set to be resolved within 6-8 weeks from the date of that post. Unfortunately right now is Chinese National Day (A weeklong holiday running October 1-7)."
    We'll have a firmer idea of exactly what is going on after that, and I'm sure Mr. Black will update you then- right now he's been working to get all information and dates sorted so you guys know exactly what is going on and when

    So basically, they're telling us that the production manager (who made Update 94) not only haven't forseen a disaster in production of printed material but also, after a year or so working whit parthners based in PRC, doesn't even know that EVERY YEAR on October 1, starts this holyday; they'r also tolding us that after 7 weeks have passed, the poor manager still doesn't have enough data...wow, I call this a trainwreck of a production, but finally i can use a relevant update!

    Ok...sometimes bad things happens, at least we know that after the 7th october this mystery will be solved. (who knows? maybe whit another delay, i'm pessimistic)

    Still, things like this gave me a (TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE) impression of a garage-based-buisness which run KS after KS maybe because is not able to convince any serious investor, an i can see why!


  4. #24

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    The latest possible date for the 6-8 weeks delay ~ 8. Oct. Direct after the holidays. So what is the problem? It is still within the 6-8 weeks delay. And they can start to send it hopefully after the holidays.

    They give use updates of the progress and still is wrong.
    Last edited by Teskal; 10-02-2014 at 09:29 PM.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhiaccioloPainting View Post
    In my country "customers are always right"...when i'm dishing out my money into a commercial buisness i'm entitled to ask for professional and top-notch service. Also the answer to you confusion is right in the KS terms of service u'v just posted: if they keep to be unclear about the shipping date, they've basically denied our right to know if delay was excessive or not! that's an information they cannot hide or procrastinate forever, otherwise seems like a scam to me and to the very KS premise.
    To be fair: i know cmon is offering a refund by now, so that's ok from them.

    I don't know about other kickstarters from this company (or others), but this one seriously have problems: in facts,here comes another "good news....everyone!"

    "The delay in Update 94 (printing) was set to be resolved within 6-8 weeks from the date of that post. Unfortunately right now is Chinese National Day (A weeklong holiday running October 1-7)."
    We'll have a firmer idea of exactly what is going on after that, and I'm sure Mr. Black will update you then- right now he's been working to get all information and dates sorted so you guys know exactly what is going on and when

    So basically, they're telling us that the production manager (who made Update 94) not only haven't forseen a disaster in production of printed material but also, after a year or so working whit parthners based in PRC, doesn't even know that EVERY YEAR on October 1, starts this holyday; they'r also tolding us that after 7 weeks have passed, the poor manager still doesn't have enough data...wow, I call this a trainwreck of a production, but finally i can use a relevant update!

    Ok...sometimes bad things happens, at least we know that after the 7th october this mystery will be solved. (who knows? maybe whit another delay, i'm pessimistic)

    Still, things like this gave me a (TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE) impression of a garage-based-buisness which run KS after KS maybe because is not able to convince any serious investor, an i can see why!

    PER KICKSTARTER WEBSITE:
    It's not uncommon for things to take longer than expected. Sometimes the execution of the project proves more difficult than the creator had anticipated. If a creator is making a good faith effort to complete their project and is transparent about it, backers should do their best to be patient and understanding while demanding continued accountability from the creator.


    Asking for an update is fine but leave the attitude at home. Delays happen, CMON has let us know there is a delay, what happened and gave a new estimated time frame all the while letting people have refunds. I for one want the best possible product and I am willing to wait for it. I would rather that CMON does not feel rushed to complete this and I find that I'm missing pieces to my miniatures because some poor soul was packaging at 3AM in the morning. Thank You.

  6. #26
    Newbie, please be gentle GhiaccioloPainting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick_ View Post
    Asking for an update is fine but leave the attitude at home.
    leave yours unwanted advices at home, sir!

  7. #27
    Newbie, please be gentle GhiaccioloPainting's Avatar
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    And here we go whit another missed update...our schoolchild manager didn't do his homework again? maybe his doggy chewed them....

  8. #28

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    Its the gnomes that keep stealing the printer ink, we are looking into the issue right now. However this mean will have a further delay of 4-8 weeks. (dont be mad)

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick_ View Post
    Asking for an update is fine but leave the attitude at home.
    Quote Originally Posted by GhiaccioloPainting View Post
    leave yours unwanted advices at home, sir!
    GhiaccioloPainting,; How about bringing your good manners here?

    I understand your frustration about the communication, but that is something I have no involvement with.
    However forum behaviour is something I do deal with.
    Therefore please do not start down the road of being branded a "Troll" because of bad manners, I've had this reported to me due to that view and that description being applied to you. Please don't allow it to become accurate.
    I believe in Karma, what you give, is what you get returned. Affirmation; Savage Garden
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  10. #30
    Newbie, please be gentle GhiaccioloPainting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsreach View Post
    GhiaccioloPainting,; How about bringing your good manners here?

    I understand your frustration about the communication, but that is something I have no involvement with.
    However forum behaviour is something I do deal with.
    Therefore please do not start down the road of being branded a "Troll" because of bad manners, I've had this reported to me due to that view and that description being applied to you. Please don't allow it to become accurate.
    What?! I'm discussing here whit other fellow backers an important topic about this company behavior. My arguments and opinions are only about this subject and facts emerged during this kickstart, unlike other ppl here who made personal assumptions and advices about authors of a post instead of the ideas expressed in the topics. Please be more accurate about bad manners on this topic.
    thanks

  11. #31
    Newbie, please be gentle GhiaccioloPainting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidermine View Post
    Its the gnomes that keep stealing the printer ink, we are looking into the issue right now. However this mean will have a further delay of 4-8 weeks. (dont be mad)
    ahahaha, yeah or maybe the puppy spit them up in time for the new update! XD

    Which was not that good, as i've seen another delay in the process. So hopefully, assuming shipping take place in november, taking in account a 4-6 weeks for delivering and customs to central hub in europe, it will just hit western holidays for christmas...maybe a january 2015 release?

  12. #32
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    GhiaccioloPainting:

    I have no intention of starting an argument here, but another complaint has been raised about your manners in posting in this forum.
    While I'm willing to accept the possibility of translation errors from Italian to English, but tolerance can only go so far.

    Other moderators are in agreement about what I have mentioned and I have tried to be polite, but be advised there is a limit to what is considered acceptable.

    As I stated you may feel a just cause for frustration but the boundaries of acceptable manners should not be exceeded towards other forum members.



    Tradotto in Italiano.

    NON HO alcuna intenzione di iniziare un argomento, ma un altro problema è stato sollevato circa la modalità di distacco in questo forum che sono disposto ad accettare la possibilità di errori di traduzione dall'inglese all'italiano, ma tolleranza non può che andare così lontano.

    Altri moderatori sono d'accordo su quanto ho detto e ho cercato di essere gentile, ma c'è un limite a ciò che è considerato accettabile.

    Come ho detto si può sentire un solo motivo di frustrazione, ma i confini di modi accettabile non dovrebbe essere superato verso gli altri membri del forum.
    I believe in Karma, what you give, is what you get returned. Affirmation; Savage Garden
    Oh look my IQ results came in:-
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  13. #33

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    communication has been poor and unclear. Backers are important to the ongoing creation of new minis, so I dont understand why they cant put some extra effort in where/when its really needed.

    its easy to post a few pics and talk about how the game tactics are looking. Not to easy to concisely and delicately tell your customers what the hell is going on.

    I don't mean an exact shipping date
    ...I mean an update of progress. If all the minis are ready to roll and printing has been an issue then what % is it complete? If the production manger and general management don know this...Id question their job roles.

    Frustration grows with time and the unknown.

    I think as MODS you must be able to appreciate this, before coming down to harshly on members of your community.

    How about the MODS communicate the obvious frustration here to the coolmini team with a view that more, quality info will reduce negativity in the coolmini forums you are asked to govern.

  14. #34

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    The issue with printing can be a number of factors... for example an error in the document sent to the print company meaning the whole print run needs to be cancelled re-run. Now if this is the case the company doing the print run may not be-able to give you a clear time of when they can re-schedule your run in. They may have to split your run into smaller runs etc etc*

    Now all of this adds up to HOW do you put that to your backers? The issue here isnt that people dont know their job its how to TRANSLATE the information from Technical into laymens terms espically when you dont know the skill set / understanding of the people your talking to**... sometimes its better to say nothing

    *note I'm not in the print industry but my Partner works for a company that supplys printers to that industry This is the limit of my knowledge.
    ** I'm IT support and I know it can be a b***er to do this
    Last edited by Lord Nat; 10-22-2014 at 08:14 AM.

  15. #35

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    "Now all of this adds up to HOW do you put that to your backers?"

    sample response written in 2 mins! its not that tricky and we aren't that stupid for a laymens conversion.

    "Hi All,

    On the back of sending the wrong PDF and resending, the printers have come back to us to say that due to workload, they are having to split the amended document up in to smaller runs to fit them around their printing schedules. This means we cant (at this time) give you a clear definitive timescale for completion. I have agreed with the printers that we will contact them on the "Date" for a progress update, so will communicate this update with you by the "Date". If nothing else we will let you know the where things stand on the "date" with all the information at our disposal.

    We are doing everything in our power to resolve this delay as quickly as possible and once again we really appreciate your support."

    "sometimes its better to say nothing"

    I totally disagree.
    I work for multiple organizations in the IT sector (technical training 1st 2nd 3rd line support). Saying nothing, is not the way to relieve anxiety of an unresolved situation, saying the right thing is.
    Last edited by leeoaks; 10-22-2014 at 08:02 AM.

  16. #36

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    By your own adminssion you are used to explaining things to people so that they understand but are there because they want to understand. Now trying training a finance manager how AD works .....this is the type of problem CMON have. The backers what results but not all care how the results are produced, and if you try to explain an issue with the production will they understand? Will they even TRY to understand?

    BUT I was giving that as an example of a problem ... I dont know what the problem is, but I DO agree that there should have been some comunication as to what is going on.

    Now about the comment of saying nothing, if you have a problem that if mis-understood can cause greater anxiety that not saying anything what do you do?

  17. #37

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    Your post doesn't make much sense.....my response was purely an example, based on the sample you submitted.

    The explanation doesn't have to explain the technology, we don't need to know the full make, model and process of printing, but just receive reassurance that the solution is being worked on and the that there will be an update regardless on said date.

    If you gave me a scenario in which the finance manager was asking about active directory, as opposed to a permissions issue, I could form a response the same as with the printing. Although im pretty sure you wont get asked about AD, but a user issue that translates back to an AD issue in the back office. The response you would give is very different based on those two scenarios.

    "mis-understood can cause greater anxiety that not saying anything what do you do?" with it in mind the response doesn't have to give a definite solution.....Get the response correct first time round and don't ignore the customers questions because you haven't formed a proper response concisely.

    "By your own admission you are used to explaining things to people so that they understand but are there because they want to understand." Indeed we train those who have a vested interest in learning, but we also have to ultimately explain why training in "insert technology here" is required to the directors and decision makers within the business. This happens on a daily basis and is part of my job remit to resolve.
    Last edited by leeoaks; 10-22-2014 at 08:45 AM.

  18. #38

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    fair enough... I'll shut up now & stop playing devils advocate & should really not post half throught out comments whilst in work!

    ps - for the record I actually agree with you...

  19. #39

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    Ha, no worries, and if you need any training in new technologies, give me a shout


    Lee

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