howl inspire/Hakaar training and engaging/engage clarification
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Thread: howl inspire/Hakaar training and engaging/engage clarification

  1. #1

    Default howl inspire/Hakaar training and engaging/engage clarification

    Ok so this came up in a game today and I am wondering if we did it correctly or not.

    Pelegarth howl inspire ability states when this model engages and enemy and uses knockback(x) it can advance (x) and make 1 of it's melee attacks.

    Hakaar training ability stated if this model engaged a model this turn But would end it's turn not engaged it can move 3" towards the nearest enemy.

    Question at hand. What counts as engages/engaged?

    Obviously if you in contact you have engaged that model but what if you start in contact. Ie defensive lineman moves up and engages my Pelegarths on my activation I want to knock him back. When I start my activation I am already engaged. would this allow the inspire to be triggered or because I started engaged my model hasn't moved to warrant the engages word clause. "When this model engages" ie I never moved to engage.

    Here is the layout of what happened for clarification. One pelegarth activates vs the defensive lineman, knock him back uses inspire from howl to move (x) and make an attack, I kill the model since I made my attack action First I can still maneuver and walk that Pelegarth 6" now at end of the activation I had engaged or was engaged with a model and so triggered the training for another 3" move.

    Not sure if that is all that clear but was this correctly done. It is a complex alotments of rules between being engaged, engages, when you engage, and if you engaged.
    There is NO MERCY in this Dojo!

  2. #2

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    Another reason why this question is important is due to the though behind if your howl is dead, if you start engaged, knock back then use the training at the end to advance up to the model...

  3. #3

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    So breaking it down a bit more for better clarification.

    Interpretations of the following

    "When this model engages..."
    1. When the model actively initiates the engagement.
    2. Any time this model is in an engagement.

    "If this model engaged..."
    1. When this model actively engaged another model.
    2. Any time this model was, is or had been engaged.

    The interpretations a key in solving the above issue. As the implications of the correct interpretation can alter the outcome of the abilities. Either limiting them or altering how they work.
    There is NO MERCY in this Dojo!

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaspa V View Post
    Ok so this came up in a game today and I am wondering if we did it correctly or not.

    Pelegarth howl inspire ability states when this model engages and enemy and uses knockback(x) it can advance (x) and make 1 of it's melee attacks.

    Hakaar training ability stated if this model engaged a model this turn But would end it's turn not engaged it can move 3" towards the nearest enemy.

    Question at hand. What counts as engages/engaged?

    Obviously if you in contact you have engaged that model but what if you start in contact. Ie defensive lineman moves up and engages my Pelegarths on my activation I want to knock him back. When I start my activation I am already engaged. would this allow the inspire to be triggered or because I started engaged my model hasn't moved to warrant the engages word clause. "When this model engages" ie I never moved to engage.

    Here is the layout of what happened for clarification. One pelegarth activates vs the defensive lineman, knock him back uses inspire from howl to move (x) and make an attack, I kill the model since I made my attack action First I can still maneuver and walk that Pelegarth 6" now at end of the activation I had engaged or was engaged with a model and so triggered the training for another 3" move.

    Not sure if that is all that clear but was this correctly done. It is a complex alotments of rules between being engaged, engages, when you engage, and if you engaged.
    Let's take a look at your example:

    The Inspire: Your Pelegarth started its activation engaged with a Defender Lineman. -> This means that the Howl's Inspire (If this model engages an enemy during this activation and causes Knockback(x) it may move up to (x)" directly toward the model moved and perform 1 of its melee attacks.) does not apply, because it does not engage an enemy during this activation, it's already engaged, and can't breakaway to and engage another enemy on the same turn. My take on that Inspire is that it's the run up that gives the Pelegarth Bloodmasks the force to run through the Shieldbash and slug the enemy.

    The Training: Similarly the training (If this model engaged an enemy this activation, and would end their activation unengaged it may move 3" toward the nearest enemy.) requires that you engage an enemy this activation, which to me implies that you can't take advantage of this ability if you began the activation already engaged and did not engage and kill a new enemy. I believe the idea behind the Training is that the Ashmen are duelists who will engage and kill a model in a single activation and then look for the next challenge.

    So example 1:
    Pelegarth (with Howl's Inspire & Hakar's Training) begins its activation engaged with Lineman. The Pelegarth shieldbashes the Lineman out of the way as its action. It is now unengaged and can take its move action like normal. Neither the Inspire nor the Training activate because the Pelegarth was already engaged.

    Example 2:
    Pelegarth (with Howl's Inspire & Hakar's Training) begins its activation unengaged. It charges (moves into engagement with) a Lineman during its movement. As its action, the Pelegarth shieldbashes the Lineman - activating the Howl's Inspire and following the lineman and attacking him with a its melee attack. The attack kills the Lineman, leaving the Pelegarth unengaged at the end of its activation (after having engaged a model during this activation) - activating the Hakar's Training and letting the Pelegarth move 3" toward the nearest enemy.
    Last edited by duke_bonez; 02-26-2015 at 12:23 AM.

  5. #5

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    Abilities/Rules In Question:
    Engaged:
    If a model is in contact with one or more enemymodels, it is engaged. (Core Rules, Pg. 4)

    Pelegarth Howl Inspire: If this model engages an enemy during this activation and causes Knockback(x), it may move up to (x)” directly toward the model moved and perform 1 of its melee attacks.

    Hakar Training:
    If this model engaged an enemythis activation, and would end their activationunengaged, it may move 3” toward the nearest enemy.


    Resolution:
    Your specific scenario would resolve as follows:

    Pelegarth began the activation engaged. She uses her special action Shield Bash on the Lineman, causing Knockback. This would not trigger the Howl's Inspire ability as the Pelegarth did not Engage an enemy this activation, Engaging =/= being Engaged (aka she would have to physically engage an enemy model this round to trigger the Inspire condition).

    Had she started unengaged, then the scenario could have played out as follows:

    Pelegarth Howl activates, engages a Lineman, uses Shield Bash. After resolving the Knockback, she moves up and performs her Melee Attack on the Lineman, killing it. She would end her activation, which would trigger the Hakar's Training, as engaged an enemy this activation and would end unengaged. Pelegarth moves 3" toward the nearest enemy.
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  6. #6

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    I concur with the inspire as I had thought I played that wrong after taking a second look at it. So it is based as a present tense of this model must initiate the engagement, To gain the inspire.

    Now I see the training rule in a different light. If this model engaged a model during its activation... my pelegarth would count as engaged and complete the term if this model engaged. To me that means at any time this model engaged a model. I see that 3" move almost like a consolidation effort. For it to mean the same as when this model engages it should be termed the same.
    There is NO MERCY in this Dojo!

  7. #7

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    Thanks for that post Mr. Black!! It confirmed the thought I had for the inspire ability. I still feel a bit off on the training ability with the Hakaar though.

    As I state in my last post which I was typing while you posted. I read the term "if this model engaged an enemy..." as referring to at any point this model engaged an enemy.

    So in essence to benefit from the training it would not require initiating the engagement during the activation but only require to have at some pint been engaged during the activation.
    There is NO MERCY in this Dojo!

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaspa V View Post
    Thanks for that post Mr. Black!! It confirmed the thought I had for the inspire ability. I still feel a bit off on the training ability with the Hakaar though.

    As I state in my last post which I was typing while you posted. I read the term "if this model engaged an enemy..." as referring to at any point this model engaged an enemy.

    So in essence to benefit from the training it would not require initiating the engagement during the activation but only require to have at some pint been engaged during the activation.
    I think the key phrase in the training description is "this activation", but I understand what you mean. <shrugs>

  9. #9

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    Well even that key phrase indicates "at anytime during this models activation if it engaged an enemy model..." it could be worded either way and still sounds like the same thing.

    Origional wording- if this model engaged an enemy model This activation, and would end it's activation ...

    Alternate wording- this activation if this model engaged an enemy model, and would end it's...

    So it seems the training would work as long as at some point this activation the model was engaged.

    But I can also see the argument against that reasoning based on this alternate wording

    During this models activation if it engaged an enemy model, and would end its activation...

    That wording which can also be derived from the same statement indicates that the engagement must be done during the activation not prior.
    Hence my confusion on the subject.

    I would assume if it were to act the same as the inspire the wording would k d be along he same line, and would sound more like this.

    When this model engages an enemy this activation and would end it's activation...
    There is NO MERCY in this Dojo!

  10. #10

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    I have a question in a similar vein - while reading the abilities presented above, it made me wonder - what if the Pelegarth starts the turn engaged, uses its Knockback(x) to push an enemy back, then uses its move action to re-engage the same model? The model has caused "Knockback" and "engaged" a model this activation - does that mean I can now make a melee attack targeting the model I moved back? Or does the wording "...move up to x" directly towards the model moved and perform one melee attack..." need to happen?

  11. #11

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    According to the info and rules I understand this interaction as" when this model engages and performs a KB, hence performing KB and then engaging would not be the same thing.
    There is NO MERCY in this Dojo!

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