shael han.... can they make points and activation denial work?
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Thread: shael han.... can they make points and activation denial work?

  1. #1

    Default shael han.... can they make points and activation denial work?

    So i have been looking at my shael han an knocking up some standard lists. I was then talking to me about how more models and morale in thin game makes for a more powerful list.....hmmm I thought.

    Skirmish force
    1 rank 2 and 1 rank 1leader.
    Fulung
    9 wrath
    Red willow.

    So the idea is that i can activate all my infantry and leader plus fulung in 3 turns.

    With diamond wall and the wraths abilities they could be hard to kill.

  2. #2

    Default

    Ive been wondering about building lists around activation denial as well. I'm not convinced it will be very effective though. With the force you have there, if I understand the rules correctly, it looks like it would take 4 turns to complete activations, assuming that your leaders have The Children trait so that they can activate with the Wrath units (remember that units in a combined activation have to share a trait). At skirmish level leadership and command leadership are 5 and 7, so with 9 wrath and 2 leaders that is 2 turns minimum to activate those models, then another 2 turns to activate the 2 specialist. Lets assume that you have initiative for the sake of simplicity. So then on turn 4 of round 1 you will have activated your last model. Your opponent takes their turn 4 activation. But this is not their final activation for the round as the rules state:

    "If one player begins their turn and has no models left to activate, their turn immediately ends. Their opponent then takes 1 additional turn, and then the round ends."

    So your opponent would end up getting 2 more activations after you have finished activating your last model. In 2 turns your opponent can activate 2-14 models at the skirmish level. If your opponent takes only rank 1 units they are going to have up to 16 more models than you depending on what they take for specialists and options, even less if they mix in some rank 2 units. I cant imagine this being much of a problem for them, but if it does I would expect that any semi competent player will have ways to deal with this through force construction, deployment, or disruption of your formations to deny combined activations. Keep in mind this is all just theory crafting though so I realize I could be way off base.

    Just realized that you mention having diamond wall so I'm assuming that you have a dragon legion keeper as your rank 1 leader? As the only unit you have with the Dragon Legion trait I don't think he would be able to participate in a combined activation (he could still initiate them though), so I think that would add another activation for you bringing it to 5 for you and 7 for your opponent.

    If I'm misunderstand the rules please correct me as I would love for a small elite force to have an advantage in activation denial while having a disadvantage in morale. Not saying that your skirmish force wont be effective (Im not experienced enough to make that call), just that I don't think activation denial is something to rely on enough to build a list around it. I get the feeling that if you want to deny activations it might be more effective to build a list around disrupting enemy formations to prevent group activations, but that's probably just going to leave straggler infantry units unactivated. I don't see people not activating a specialist in order to activate the lone ashman that got pulled out of range if they have a limited number of activations left.

  3. #3

    Default

    Kumquat, you are correct. In the scenario above it would take 5 activations
    2 activations for the specialists
    2 Activations to move the Children
    1 Activation for the Legionnaire Keeper
    Which means that your opponent will get 6 or 7 activations, depending on who won initiative

    It is possible to build a skirmish list with only 3 activations
    1 Rank 1 Leader
    1 Rank 2 Leader
    1 Rank 2 Specialist
    12 Rank 2 Troops

    The leaders and troops all have to share a trait.

    With this you activate:
    Specialist
    7 Troops/Leaders
    7 Troops/Leaders

    While this gives you activation denial, it also forces you to keep all of your leaders and troops clustered together (Unless you are skorza, then Pack Leader helps you spread out a little further)

    The interesting thing about this build is that it gets more flexible as troops die, allowing you to separate into 2 distinct units of leader/troops.

  4. #4

    Default

    I have tried this myself, and seen this tried against me. It works only marginally well, and even then, depends heavily on Motivations.

    At skirmish levels you can have between 8 and 12 starting morale, with the action denial list being the 8. When you lose an average of 6 due to motivations, you are at a SERIOUS disadvantage, especially since you have 0 defensive insights if done with Shael Han's children. I kill between 1-6 models and I win, while you would need to hack through up to 18, and thats after motivation loss.

    The only time I have seen an action denial list win was when it was done as Hadross, due to the Sevridian being tankier than the other rank 2 infantry. They were able to stave off attrition a little bit better, and squeak out a 1-0 win. Even that was in doubt as the last few activations their opponent just had to kill off one guy to draw.

    Now, if both sides are running heavy Rank 2 guys, it matters less because of the smaller morale difference. Also, if you are just bashing around for fun, go for it! You'll get really good with your rank 2 where every positioning error costs you 1/9 of your army.
    Last edited by Mezegis; 04-10-2015 at 09:36 AM.

  5. #5

    Default

    so based on Swans list:

    1 Rank 1 Leader Big Sister

    1 Rank 2 Leader Warchild
    1 Rank 2 Specialist - Red willow (isn't on the table)
    12 Rank 2 Troops - Wrath

    If this is the case then shael han can move its full force in 2 activation?


  6. #6

    Default

    Yes, your Commander can activate 7 models, and at the start of the game, there are exactly 14 in play, since Willow is hidden.

  7. #7

    Default

    Could someone explain what is meant by "Point and Activation Denial"? I apologize, I'm new to the game so I'm not strong on the lingo.

  8. #8

    Default

    I took it to mean:

    Points: hit your objectives to reduce your opponents morale level, or, to reduce their points. Kind of an odd way of thinking about it, but it seemed most fiting.

    Activation denial: Since the game only allows your opponent one activation after you pass your turn, some people try and get their lists to be as few activations as possible so that they limit how many of their opponents get to act. This is usually done with lots of the same Rank 2 infantry and leaders.

    The smallest # at a battle level is with Shael Han, running nothing but Wrath, Sisters, and Warchild, with Red Willow and Iron Eyes as the specialists. Both specialists start off the board, so you can move all 22 children in 3 activations, leaving your opponent with 4-5 activations total before the Round ends. When some people run 4 Specialists and at least 4 activations of Infantry, it puts them in a very tough spot, allowing the children to hit only parts of the army.

  9. #9

    Default

    Mezegis is right on target. Since the target is 3 activations it could also be done with:

    1 Warchild
    2 Big Sisters
    14 Wrath
    1 Dragon Keeper / Black Lotus
    8 Legionnaires / Lotus Warriors
    Iron Eyes
    Red Willow

    if you wanted variety. You could also drop a Big Sister and Upgrade the Keeper to Winterhawk or the Black Lotus to Madam Mui

    To give you a more tactical version you could go with:
    1 Warchild
    1 Big Sister
    15 Wrath
    1 Winterhawk / Madam Mui
    6 Legionnaires / Lotus Warriors
    Iron Eyes
    Red Willow
    Last edited by Swan; 04-15-2015 at 05:55 PM.

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