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Thread: Questions for Clarification of Combat (With examples!)

  1. #1

    Default Questions for Clarification of Combat (With examples!)

    Hello everyone! I will be updating this post as questions are answered and issues resolved.

    So, with some of us being in the play test group for the Dreadmire expansion, and for the edification of us all, I thought I would set up this thread.
    It's my intent to explain step by step how combat works, this being the one and only difficult thing about this game.
    I'm not an expert, but I have a lot of game play under my belt and a history of explaining rules in an easy to understand fashion.
    I really really hope that those that are more learned than I will chime in and correct any errors I make.

    To make it simple, I'll be using card interaction examples to show the rule (as I understand it). There will be card specific resolutions, so check if you've encountered the same problems and got the same solutions.

    I have simplified some of the text for the sake of expedience and have only done so when it doesn't sacrifice anything. My clarifications are in blue, the most pertinent info is in purple.
    General note: You can never skip any of these steps, they happen even if there is no action to do during it.

    Combat is broken up into the following steps
    1) Reveal Enemy
    2) Reaction
    3) Fight
    4) Advancement
    5) Wrap-up
    Step One: Reveal Enemy

    • Players flip the first enemy in lane (the one closest to the troopers) face up (ignore this step if the closest enemy is already flipped up)
    • If the enemy card as a REVEAL effect, it happens now (and it only happens when it is flipped face up, so ignore this effect if it's already face up)
      • This REVEAL can ONLY be interrupted by a card that explicitly states it can be used in response to a REVEAL effect.
      • Some cards (Pulsar Bomb and Shotgun) can cancel REVEAL effects (they don't happen at all), some cards just mitigate the damage suffered without cancelling the effect (Med pack and Medical Shuttle) and some do something else (Bio-Enhancer).
        • Manticore Exoskeleton deals damage if the Reveal effect does damage

      • Effects that happen at the beginning of each combat happen now (Regeneration)



    Step Two: Reaction
    • All players can play Special Abilities of cards in play and Instant Cards from their hands (you can only play Special Abilities from your hand if it's explicitly on that card). Generally if a card says "Once per round..." now is the time to use that card. This is NOT the only time Instants can be played.

      • This is the step where your buddies can help you deal with enemies. This is also the step where they can play cards to help themselves before their turn.
        • Telekinesis can be used to search their own discard pile for an item, they can then choose to use that item on you or themselves.
        • Weapons Research and Armory Wave 2+ abilities don't have to target the currently active player
        • Drop Ship can't be used during this step, it's lacking the Instant symbol
        • Hi-ex Grenade can only be used in this step

      • This is the step were you prevent damage you are going to suffer (Med Pack, Medics, Manticore Exoskeleton), this means it is never put on the Trooper card.



    Step Three: Fight
    • First Troop and First Enemy do their Power in damage to each other is dealt simultaneously (if there is damage reduction is play, factor it in now)
    • Put a number of Damage Tokens on each card equal to the modified damage dealt
      • Any card that is triggered by dealing damage is now applied or used
        • Mk1 Ol Fashioned Chainsaw happen now
        • Manticore Exoskeleton deals damage now
        • Hyperion Assault Battery can be used now (if you did at least one point of damage), zero damage is not considered damage
        • Defender Mk-IV Exo Suit can transfer some of the dealt damage to it's self now.
        • Bile Slug burns it's opponent and deals the base damage
        • Cerberus happens at the start of EACH Fight step (that means it happens multiple times in a combat)




    • If the total number of Damage Tokens on a card is equal to or greater than it's Hit Points, it is killed. Troops and their equipped cards go to your discard pile, Enemies go to the encounter deck discard pile
      • A card that is killed still have their effects happen
        • Gore Mosquito can survive it's death if the trooper doesn't over kill it enough. If it is dealt 3 damage and kills it's enemy, it gains 2 hit points, bringing it up to 5 total hp with only 3 damage. If it is dealt 5 damage and it kills it's enemy, it gains 2 hit points, bringing it up to 5 total hp with 5 damage, which kills it for real this time.
        • Gatherer still does it's damage to the base.
        • Drone only does it's draw reduction effect once, but multiple Drones could cause you to lose multiple draws.
        • Ajax Battle Suit still gives it's power bonus to remaining troops
        • Experimental HPS Savior Armor keeps it's trooper alive for one more Combat, if the trooper killed the last enemy and is killed in return then it stays until the next round and then dies automatically at the end of the first Combat it fights in. There is no need to keep the armor on that trooper, it only dies if it fights.

      • "Would be killed" and Burn do not count as kills, so effects that key off killing don't happen
      • Survival effects happen if the card isn't killed (Deathspur, Swarm Caller)

    • If no one is killed, loop back to the top of the Reaction step and repeat. If at least one card is killed, go to the Advancement step.


    Step Four: Advancement Phase

    • Slide all cards forward until there is a card in both First Troop and First Enemy zones. You can't rearrange the card order during this movement, every things stays in it's relative position to each other.
    • Start from the Reveal step until one or both sides is completely cleared.


    Step Five: Wrap-Up Phase
    • If there are no more enemies and you have at least one Trooper left, you are a bad ass and a winner.
    • If there are no more troopers and you have at least one Enemy left, get ready for the hurt. Basically you'll get to do one last Hail Mary combat to stop them from eating your base
      • Reveal the first enemy card (if it's not revealed) and complete it's effect if you can
      • Reaction step, everyone has one last chance to play Special Abilities and Instants. Now is a good time for that Paratrooper.
        • If a trooper is played then you start Combat all over again

      • If the enemy is still alive after your best attempts to kill it, it does damage to the base equal to it's modified Power and is then discarded
      • Repeat these steps for each enemy left in lane.

    • If there are no cards left in play, you win the round. Kind of.
    • This is when you do your trooper upgrades, if you're playing with the shiney heroes.


    For "First Strike" effects, like the Swarmers and the Sparkjumper. follow all the rules for the Fight step, just skip the part about dealing damage simultaneously. If a card is dealt more damage than it's Hit Points, it doesn't get a chance to swing back. Two first strikers cancel out each other's ability, so combat is handled as normal.

    If at any time a card's Hit Points are exceeded by it's Damage, it is killed. Check the steps of Fight for how that works. The rules say you only check for death in the Fight step, but this is contradicted in numerous places in examples and FAQ.


    And that's it!
    Hope this helps, hope I get a lot of feed back on it too!
    Last edited by stupidkid; 05-27-2015 at 10:53 PM. Reason: Corrected the reading of Cerberus, edits via Fry

  2. #2

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    - Lifeguard armor can be used at other times as well, not just in response to reveal effects. Refer to the official FAQ. It doesn't have to say it can be used as an instant: compare it to the Storm Trooper, for example. If the Lifeguard Armor did have the instant icon, that would allow you to deploy it at any time.

    - in general, you can use instants whenever you want, they are not limited to only Step Two: Reaction. Refer to the official FAQ.

    - the official FAQ question about Med Pack and Pulsar Shield implies that you play damage prevention effects when the damage actually happens, rather than before the damage happens, so not during Step Two: Reaction but rather in Step Three: Fight. I disagree with the ruling, but at the moment it's official.

    - check your use of "it's" versus "its"

    - in the official FAQ, it's clarified that you get another chance to use instants between iterations of the Fight Step between the same Troop and Enemy.

    - be careful about your explanation of "first strike." It does not let you have a fight step with no retaliation. If the opponent survives, they hit back immediately. See the official FAQ about the Swarmer.

    - damage is only explained in the context of Step Three: Fight, but I think it's reasonable to assume that cards are killed at any time their damage exceeds their HP. For instance, it has been clarified that a troop immediately dies during the deploy phase if you move its armor to a different troop and the damage counters on the troop exceed its reduced HP.

    Official FAQ:
    http://cmon.com/wp-content/uploads/2...AQ_2015-V2.pdf

  3. #3

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    That is a different FAQ then I've seen before. I was using the unformated one but it seems to be the same.
    Check me if I understand this right:
    1) I can't find what you are refering to in the FAQ about life guard. Storm trooper is a special ability, so allowed during Reaction step; Lifeguard isn't an Instant, which means it can't be played as one, correct? But you are saying that you can use it's ability out of hand anyways? I would compare it to Drop Ship (useable during deployment but not during combat)
    2) The FAQ isn't terribly clear about this, unfortunately. It just says Reaction isn't the only time it can be used, without stating it's useable any time, but I see your point. I'll correct it.
    3) So, we should add a remove blue tokens/ damage reduction phase to the end of the wrap up.
    4)Minor grammar is my achilles heel.
    5) Corrected
    6) I'll clarify that the enemy will swing back if not murdered outright
    7) yeah, there are all sorts of things like that but by the book it's only fight. I think i know how to make it clearer for people.

  4. #4

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    You deploy the Lifeguard armor during the Deploy Phase as usual for armors. If it had the Instant icon, you could deploy it any time. Once the Lifeguard armor is equipped to a troop, you can use the ability (discard the armor to heal a troop) any time you want, just like you can use the Storm Trooper ability any time you want.

    Q: When a card says “May be played in response to reveal effects” does this mean it can ONLY be played then?
    A: No, this is merely specifying that it CAN be played in response to reveal effects, which usually are not something a player can play cards in response to.

    --------
    I think this is reasonably clear at indicating you can use special abilities and instants whenever you want.

    Q: I’m a bit confused on just when I can/can’t use a Special Ability/Instant. The rulebook states they can be played during the Reaction Step, but some cards/abilities would have no effect then. Can you clarify this?
    A: The Reaction Step is intended to be the very last chance a player has to play cards before combat happens, it is not intended to be the ONLY time such cards/abilities can be used. The only major stipulation to using/playing cards (specifically Instants) is in regards to Reveal Effects, in which only cards that specifically state they can be used may be used.

  5. #5

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    Got ya! I understand what you mean now. Lifeguard equipped for it's effect to work, but it's effect can be done during Reveal.

    I got it changed.

    Thanks Fry!

  6. #6

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    Have they already granted people access the the expansion files? I haven't heard anything since I sent them my username.

  7. #7

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    Not that I know of, Nivek.
    I'm just trying to solidify my understand, while helping people, so I'll be able to be productive when it happens.

  8. #8

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    It's an excellent idea to have a place to go with a place to go over confusing interactions as we prep for the expansion. There are plenty of times we've looked over card text (in any game!) and gone "Wait, what does THAT mean?" when it's painfully clear to everyone else...

  9. #9

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    The forum ate my post.
    Anyway, I'm new to the forum, just wrapped up playing 4 games by myself of Xenoshyft. (I played it core/vanilla without any of my KS extras.)
    I had quite a few questions on things I felt were vague or not documented, but I only wrote down a couple thinking I would remember the others...


    Anyway, in no particular order:
    1) The Moss Hulk card states "this enemy gains +1 for each damage on it". Is that considered a creature 'ability'? I would think yes? So then if a card on my troop says "once per round, prevent W damage done to this troop by an enemy ability" it would counter the portion of the creature damage that came from the ability, up to W... right? So if the Moss Hulk has taken 3 damage, gaining a +3 to damage, and this is in Wave 2, would the troop be able to block 2 of the 3 damage so the Moss Hulk only deals Base+1?


    2) It is night time weather, and a "Night Haunter" comes along to eat my troops. Whenever it kills a troop, it does additional damage to other troop(s). But what if they both kill each other? Since the cards are removed "immediately" when damage tokens => HP, perhaps the nighttime effect "each time this enemy kills a troop, deal 2 damage to each troop in this lane" does not apply (because the card is immediately removed.. I could see this 'both ways', but ruled to remove it instantly, and not applaying the 2 damage that round.


    3) It is Monsoon outside, and a brood comes along with a card that states:
    Reveal : deal 3 damage to first troop in lane
    Reveal (monsoon): place this enemy at the end of the enemy lane, each time a troop uses an ability, deal that troop 2 damage
    Question: Are BOTH reveal effects in play, does the Monsoon replace the regular reveal effect?


    -There are many cards with more than one reveal (usually tied to weather conditions). For example, another cards has one night effect and one fog effect, the difference being if the first (front) or last (back) is damaged on reveal.. but what if you have night-time AND fog? Does it deal damage to both the front AND the rear?


    Hope this was the right place to ask these questions.. Thanks for starting a FAQ/Clarification type post..

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by QFang View Post
    The forum ate my post.
    Anyway, I'm new to the forum, just wrapped up playing 4 games by myself of Xenoshyft. (I played it core/vanilla without any of my KS extras.)
    I had quite a few questions on things I felt were vague or not documented, but I only wrote down a couple thinking I would remember the others...


    Anyway, in no particular order:
    1) The Moss Hulk card states "this enemy gains +1 for each damage on it". Is that considered a creature 'ability'? I would think yes? So then if a card on my troop says "once per round, prevent W damage done to this troop by an enemy ability" it would counter the portion of the creature damage that came from the ability, up to W... right? So if the Moss Hulk has taken 3 damage, gaining a +3 to damage, and this is in Wave 2, would the troop be able to block 2 of the 3 damage so the Moss Hulk only deals Base+1?


    2) It is night time weather, and a "Night Haunter" comes along to eat my troops. Whenever it kills a troop, it does additional damage to other troop(s). But what if they both kill each other? Since the cards are removed "immediately" when damage tokens => HP, perhaps the nighttime effect "each time this enemy kills a troop, deal 2 damage to each troop in this lane" does not apply (because the card is immediately removed.. I could see this 'both ways', but ruled to remove it instantly, and not applaying the 2 damage that round.


    3) It is Monsoon outside, and a brood comes along with a card that states:
    Reveal : deal 3 damage to first troop in lane
    Reveal (monsoon): place this enemy at the end of the enemy lane, each time a troop uses an ability, deal that troop 2 damage
    Question: Are BOTH reveal effects in play, does the Monsoon replace the regular reveal effect?


    -There are many cards with more than one reveal (usually tied to weather conditions). For example, another cards has one night effect and one fog effect, the difference being if the first (front) or last (back) is damaged on reveal.. but what if you have night-time AND fog? Does it deal damage to both the front AND the rear?


    Hope this was the right place to ask these questions.. Thanks for starting a FAQ/Clarification type post..
    1. No. The ability is not dealing any damage. It is increasing the Power of the Moss Hulk.

    2. The effect triggers when it kills a Troop. It does not matter if it dies in the process.

    3. All effects happen on a card.
    Senior Developer
    Dark Age, Massive Darkness, Rum & Bones, World of SMOG: Rise of Moloch, Xenoshyft
    CMON Inc.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    1. No. The ability is not dealing any damage. It is increasing the Power of the Moss Hulk.

    2. The effect triggers when it kills a Troop. It does not matter if it dies in the process.

    3. All effects happen on a card.

    Thank you very much for the attention!

    In regards to 1.: will creature cards use the keyword "Ability" on the card then, and I just haven't seen such a card yet? (Or if not, how/when does the armor actually block damage from ability once per round?)

    In regards to 3.: Holy coyote that makes for some truly brutal moments! (I like it!).

    (A bit off-topic, but has anyone had much success playing this solo as 1p with only 1 division? I've never gone further than round 9 (wave 2, round 3), but that could be due to bad gaming on my part. Is any division or add-on essential for success in 1p games?)

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by QFang View Post
    Thank you very much for the attention!

    In regards to 1.: will creature cards use the keyword "Ability" on the card then, and I just haven't seen such a card yet? (Or if not, how/when does the armor actually block damage from ability once per round?)
    Everything in the Ability Box is a card's ability. Not every Ability deals damage.

    -Granting an enemy a Power Boost is not dealing damage. Allowing an enemy to attack first is not dealing damage. "Reveal: Deal the first Troop in this lane 3 damage", "When this enemy is killed, deal all Troops in this lane 2 damage" are examples of Abilities that deal damage.
    Senior Developer
    Dark Age, Massive Darkness, Rum & Bones, World of SMOG: Rise of Moloch, Xenoshyft
    CMON Inc.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Mr. Black View Post
    Everything in the Ability Box is a card's ability. Not every Ability deals damage.

    -Granting an enemy a Power Boost is not dealing damage. Allowing an enemy to attack first is not dealing damage. "Reveal: Deal the first Troop in this lane 3 damage", "When this enemy is killed, deal all Troops in this lane 2 damage" are examples of Abilities that deal damage.
    Got'cha! Thanks!
    Really enjoy the game so far by the way, tip of the hat to you all!
    (Kingdom Death: Monster has thought me to appreciate hard games with lots of loosing and dying.)

  14. #14

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    Hello. This is still unclear for me. How actualy works the MK III Vulcan Gatling Gun and Private Gator Lacroix? Can I prevent damage, using by Gator or Vulcan in situations like this:
    - If an enemy deals exceeding damage to the second troop?
    - When an enemy attacks the first and the second (prevent to second) troop in lane?
    - When an enemy attacks the last troop in lane?
    - when an enemy deals its damage before troops attack (ex. Marsh Flayer)?
    I guess:
    - yes,
    - yes,
    - no,
    - no.
    Please help.

    Best regards.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by goraizon View Post
    Hello. This is still unclear for me. How actualy works the MK III Vulcan Gatling Gun and Private Gator Lacroix? Can I prevent damage, using by Gator or Vulcan in situations like this:
    - If an enemy deals exceeding damage to the second troop?
    - When an enemy attacks the first and the second (prevent to second) troop in lane?
    - When an enemy attacks the last troop in lane?
    - when an enemy deals its damage before troops attack (ex. Marsh Flayer)?
    I guess:
    - yes,
    - yes,
    - no,
    - no.
    Please help.

    Best regards.


    None of those are examples of an Ability that is dealing damage. All of those examples are an enemy dealing damage from Combat, and thus cannot be prevented with either of those effects.
    Senior Developer
    Dark Age, Massive Darkness, Rum & Bones, World of SMOG: Rise of Moloch, Xenoshyft
    CMON Inc.

  16. #16

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    O MY GOD! Thanks a lot for fast answer. It is a painful to hear this, but I agree all these answers. I've spent a lot of time to find the true, but only here its happen.

    Best regards.

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