Goritsi zeti and Deadly Flourish question
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Thread: Goritsi zeti and Deadly Flourish question

  1. #1

    Default Goritsi zeti and Deadly Flourish question

    If a zeti uses Deadly Flourish to move through enemy models, does it become engaged with those models an then disengage them as it moves through?
    The rules are not clear as to what "move though" means. Other games I have played have ruled that models that move through or over other models still engage and leave engagement during the move.

    I'm trying to get a handle on whether engaging or disengaging occurs because it may trigger various abilities, like the Pelegarth Howl training.

  2. #2

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    No, you are never in contact with those enemy models (unless you end the flourish in contact). Given that, you are never engaged.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDave View Post
    No, you are never in contact with those enemy models (unless you end the flourish in contact). Given that, you are never engaged.
    Thanks, but I'm curious where you find textual support for this supposition. The models bases would physically be in contact, and then leave contact, thus should be "engaged" and then "disengage." Moving through is undefined, but engage and disengage are defined in such a way that the rules as written would favor a reading of engage/disengage, or at the very least leave it ambiguous as to meaning.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am curious as to the why, so that we can fairly resolve similar questions.

  4. #4

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    Its easier than that... Deadly flourish gives you leap

    the FAQ (Goritsi section pg 6) says this
    Q: Do models with the Leap special ability still payDisengage Costs/Penalties for models they moveover?A: No.

  5. #5

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    That's actually not what I asked. On pg 11, Disengaging: "Even if a model ignores these penalties (for example, by being forced) they are still disengaging." Which leads me back to my pelegarth howl training, that allows a model to move after a model disengages a friendly model, regardless of cost/penalty.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradox1 View Post
    Thanks, but I'm curious where you find textual support for this supposition.
    The wording on the card, the definition of engaged and contact, and the FAQ mentioned above. That's how it's played. They don't engage when moving through a unit. You're assuming they do and asking us to show you where it says they don't count as disengaging. Your assumption is wrong, they don't engage when moving through a unit. That's their movement trick, they ignore the contact triggering stuff.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDave View Post
    The wording on the card, the definition of engaged and contact, and the FAQ mentioned above. That's how it's played. They don't engage when moving through a unit. You're assuming they do and asking us to show you where it says they don't count as disengaging. Your assumption is wrong, they don't engage when moving through a unit.
    The FAQ does not answer my question, and teh book definition deals with a different part of the Disengage rule from that FAQ. So it's not applicable to this question. Whether a model suffers a disengaging penalty or cost does not affect whether it is in fact engaged or disengaging, per the rulebook. Your explanation ignores the last sentence of the Disengaging rule.

  8. #8

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    Again, your line of reasoning ignores the fact that the Zeti are never engaged when using flourish unless they end it in contact with an enemy. If you don't believe, go ask on the FAQ thread for the official response.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by EvilDave View Post
    Again, your line of reasoning ignores the fact that the Zeti are never engaged when using flourish unless they end it in contact with an enemy. If you don't believe, go ask on the FAQ thread for the official response.
    Where does it say they are never engaged? This is what I'm getting at. It's possible I've missed something, I've only had a handful of games. But from my FAQ and book, these are the rules I have. Flourish says "move through." Move through is not defined, but implicates base contact.
    Engage says base contact. Disengage says leaves base contact.

  10. #10

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    Where does it say they're engaged?

    Leap says:

    During free movement, this model may move through models as long as that movement does not end over a model’s base.
    No mention is made of contact, implicit or otherwise. Just that the model can't end over another's base.

  11. #11

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    When moving, you normally cannot move through other models. Movement, pg 11.
    Leap allows that to occur. However, leap does not address Disengaging, engaging, or contact. Even where models ignore disengaging costs/penalties, this does not change the fact that they disengage. Se Disengage, pg 11.

    Models are elements pg 4.

    Contact are when two elements touch or overlap. Pg 4.

    Engaged is when two models are on opposing sides and in base contact. Pg4.

    When a model moves through another element, it contacts that element. Pg 16.

    Thus, it would appear that logic dictates that when a model moves through another model, it engages that model and then disengages.

  12. #12

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    I'd argue that two models can't be in contact by overlapping. The definition specifically calls out terrain in this instance. Without that call-out I'd agree, but with it there it reads as an exception, not the rule.

    In any case, this argument is going in circles. Go ask on the FAQ thread for the official wording.
    Last edited by EvilDave; 04-08-2016 at 04:31 PM.

  13. #13

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    Evil Dave is right. Go and download the youtube Tactica recordings where Mike Shinall specifically mentions this as one of the ways a Goritsi player can counteract troops like Nasier Ashmen by not being in contact with them at all (so not triggering their Act with Certainty ability). Specifically, the Wardancers move up to an enemy as close as you want (WITHOUT engaging them) then they perform their Deadly Flourish and leap over the enemy, dealing them a 1d10 attack along the way. You'll notice this is different from their Caressing Blades melee attack which does give them 2d10.

    It does get a bit fiddly in measuring since you have to ensure they can land behind an enemy WITHOUT touching the enemy's base. So it'll only work with units on normal 30mm bases.

    The Scourge Hound, OTOH, can Leap 6", so can clear most units in one Leap, and if the enemies are clustered tightly together (Bloodmasks to get advantage of Shieldwall) can even attack 2 or 3 of them in one Leap (depending on how they are clustered etc.).

    (EDIT: ah... here we go. A Tactica written by Mike Shinall himself, buried in one of the posts here: "For starters, lets look at the Nasier units and see just what the Goritsi have against them: ASHMEN: Ashmen want to engage 1v1 and will punish you for doing so. War Dancers can ignore this entirely by not engaging via their Deadly Flourish".

    So... no engaging. Hope that's clear enough for you?)
    Last edited by Chinkster; 04-12-2016 at 04:33 AM.

  14. #14

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    No, an offhand comment in a YouTube video is not clear enough for a rules question.
    Fortunately, there is now an answer in the FAQ thread, at least.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by paradox1 View Post
    No, an offhand comment in a YouTube video is not clear enough for a rules question.
    Excuse me. It's NOT an offhand comment. It's a full blown, in-depth "strength and weaknesses of the troops" overview by one of the designers of the game. If you haven't bothered to listen to that series, I would highly recommend you do so ASAP. A lot of your questions will be answered in those commentaries.
    Last edited by Chinkster; 04-12-2016 at 09:20 AM.

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chinkster View Post
    Excuse me. It's NOT an offhand comment. It's a full blown, in-depth "strength and weaknesses of the troops" overview by one of the designers of the game. If you haven't bothered to listen to that series, I would highly recommend you do so ASAP. A lot of your questions will be answered in those commentaries.
    If they cant be bothered to write rules in the rulebook, or at least make a comprehensive errata, I cant be bothered to listen to YouTube recordings I had no clue existed until yesterday.

  17. #17

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    do you pay terrain costs when you leap into or out of terrain?

  18. #18

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    You do, leap only let's you move through models. You also can't move over impassable terrain. Think of it as them cartwheeling 3", not one big jump.

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