America what is going on?!?
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  1. #1

    Default America what is going on?!?

    I'm not one who normally sparks controversy sort of generally keeping my head down and carrying on, however I risk loosing friends here. But I was taught to stand up when something was wrong.

    To give a little context I was caught up in a very peripheral way in the effects of the bombing in London in 2005 so I am aware of national security and can appreciate some curtailment of civil liberties.

    That said what has just come down from president Trump scares me to the core; that the leader of the free world, the UKs strongest ally can act in such a despicable fashion makes me question my previously unshakable conviction that the USA was a force for good in the world. Now I find myself deeply concerned that the US seems to be going in a very very dark direction.

    If the US was a small weak country you could kind of shrug your shoulders and make tsk noises but it's the Super Power of the world and appears to be run by a spoiled brat who has never had anything denied him in all his life and doesn't give a damn about any one or anything other than what he wants. This seems in complete contrast with kind generous hearted Americans I meet in day to day life and indeed on this forum. So the title what is going on America?
    Victis hostibus tuis tibi rapitur videre et audire fletum mulierum. (or as near as google can do it!)
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  2. #2
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    The whole world is concerned about America's new president and the direction he is taking the country.
    Anyone who follows me via Facebook will know my politics are based on Socialist and Humanist principles which is why I do not intend to make any further comment on the subject.


    I REALISE THIS IS A DIFFICULT THREAD AND CONTROVERSIAL.
    THIS THREAD WILL REMAIN OPEN, BUT KEEP THE CONVERSATION POLITE AND RATIONAL.
    I HAVE NO INTENTION OF WAVING A HEAVY HAMMER BUT I WILL COME DOWN VERY HEAVILY ON ANYONE WHO CROSSES THE LINE.
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  3. #3

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    Everyone is watching and wondering what is going on.

    Sadly it is not purely limited to the US. Many a EU, and former EU, countries are pulling hard right, in the political area atm, with an increase in focus on isolationism.

    Some of it is a sign of the times, some a sign of a disappointment with the established political system.
    The odds of succesfully finishing this miniature is 3720:1





  4. #4

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    We don know what to do either is all ICANN's say.its sad.me and bialy talked about this. He still has people to answer to in his staff that if he continues the bullshite they'll hopefully say..bad trump stop doing that...lol

  5. #5

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    You're on your own America! *starts building wall out of snow in front yard*
    "Remember, you can't spell paint without a little pain."

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  6. #6

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    We don't know what to do either. I just hope that the system of checks and balances that our forefathers put in place can manage to keep at least some of his damage to a minimum. The very concept that this man has access to our nuclear codes wakes me up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night. Though, on a good note, a federal court just put a temporary ban on trumpsome Muslim ban. It was brought to court by the ACLU,.. and is at least on hold pending an actual hearing on the matter.
    It's only a flesh wound!!!


  7. #7

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    Reading comments like these ones, make me feel at least, a little bit more comfortable, since there seems to be ideological opposition to what seems to be an hecatomb* on one of the main (influentially, economically and militarily) countries of the whole world.

    *Not sure if that's the correct word, but to me (non English native) sounded appropriate.
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  8. #8

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    I believe that the majority of Americans are upset and angry about the ban and what it says about us to the rest of the world. There is a vocal and active section of the country that is acting out of fear and driven by ideological winner-take-all thinking. They don't number enough to make major changes but unfortunately there were enough other people in the country that felt the current broken and unresponsive congress needed a shakeup and were willing to elect a demagogue to make their point. I think we are in for a bumpy 2 (if he gets impeached) to 4 years.

    zach
    www.crookedeye.net

  9. #9

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    Mr Lanier you said it best!!!

  10. #10

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    Only about 47% of the population voted. That just shows that both choices were so bad, that people chose apathy over engaging in the process. That is often the case sadly. The "zealots" are crazy, but they always come out in force to vote. The sane people, however, are lazy,.. tired of being offered bad choices,.. or just plain don't care. And that's why Trump won,... because the crazies vote, and the normals don't. Also, don't forget that we have a system (electoral college) that allows a person to take office, even if it's against the will of the majority of the people.
    It's only a flesh wound!!!


  11. #11

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    Hopefully, Webmonkey's Python signature sums it up about America over the next four years. It seems we have forgotten the inscription on the good ole Statue of Liberty.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webmonkey View Post
    Only about 47% of the population voted. That just shows that both choices were so bad, that people chose apathy over engaging in the process. That is often the case sadly. The "zealots" are crazy, but they always come out in force to vote. The sane people, however, are lazy,.. tired of being offered bad choices,.. or just plain don't care.
    Happened the same on my country to a lesser scale. Hope that the empeachment @crookedeye mentions works before the four years (or if) it gets too bad.
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  13. #13

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    I typically avoid political discussions as they usually don't help anything and I am on the forum to relax and enjoy a strong community....but since I was just called crazy, I felt I needed to respond.

    So far I am completeley happy with my vote for Trump and am glad that he is doing what he said. I have always kept myself politcally informed and try to vote in every election. In general the U.S. Is split between urban and rural. (Yes these are generalities). Urban areas seem to desire a one world government philosophy and are less concerned with giving up some freedoms for the sake of percieved increases in security. The rural areas tend to be more interested in the government keeping out of our lives except to protect the countries borders and let us have the freedom to make our own mistakes. I am personally closer to lebertarian than anything else and Trump has been the closest to talking about rolling back government interferrence in citizen's daily life of any candidate in my life time. I am sure he will make mistakes, but the direction the country was taking in the last 16 years has been scary and a Hillary Clinton presidency would have been disatrous for the U.S. As it has been in th past.

    it is also important to remember that election turnouts in the US is always low and the country has been spilit fairly evenly since our founding. The big difference appears to be that the progressives and "never Trumpers" tend to be very vocal and tend to shut down discussion by accusing those that think differently of being racist, misogynistic, etc...i believe their use of PC techniques shutting down discussion is why they tend to be shocked when things like Brexit and Trumps election happen.

    Enough politics, this is a great community and when we focus on things we have in common we are all better off.

    -mike

  14. #14

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    KruleBear, Yes I think the centre periphery aspects of the U.S. elections are constantly overlooked by people outside U.S. and to europeans I would compare it somewhat to what people feel towards E.U. to make people understand.

    I don't think I can say much else that is productive.

    He and his cronies seems inept so far, that's at least something. But it has started worse than I had imagined, it really has.

  15. #15

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    Wait, so this Trump guy is a real person?! I thought he was just an internet meme Oh God no... *rushes back into yard to shore up melting wall of slush*

    Don't worry gang. I still say we're bigger than any one man or the politics of our respective nations
    "Remember, you can't spell paint without a little pain."

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  16. #16

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    Dear Krulebear I would never ever call you crazy not in a million years (well only if you said finecast was a good product) My point was this apparent contradiction. A decent kind hearted people generous to a fault who I am proud to say have been staunch allies to my nation through thick and thin of which we could ask no more. It made no difference whether Republican or Democrat you guys have been there!

    And then Trump.
    Victis hostibus tuis tibi rapitur videre et audire fletum mulierum. (or as near as google can do it!)
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  17. #17

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    KB>> I would disagree,.. republicans/conservatives want just as much government as democrats/liberals do, they just want it applied differently. Conservatives want government to control people's personal choices (ie: tell gays that they can't marry, tell women that they can't have abortions etc,..) yet they want government to keep it hands out of business. (So they pocket even more money). Liberals want the exact opposite. I want the government to keep its hand off my personal life. It's none of their business who I marry, or whether or not my wife has an abortion. I do , however, want the government to regulate business. Why?? Because without regulations, businesses will run "rough-shot" over the people. In my view,.. conservatives have their wires crossed and have a backwards logic. How so?? Most conservatives claim to be Christian, yet all of their action are the exact opposite of Christianity. For example, the Bible (and practically every religion) says that helping others is a good thing, and killing others is a bad thing. Do you agree?? If so,.. then how can you be conservative?? By definition, anything that even remotely resembles helping another human being,.. welfare, planned parenthood, foreign aid, taking in refugees ( I could go on),.. all of these things help other people, which would be the Christian thing to do, yet the conservatives are dead set against them. Why?? Because somehow in their backwards logic, helping others is the sin,.. and killing others is the virtue. This is why the top two things on a conservatives plate are, personal guns,.. and bigger military. Both of these things serve only one else purpose,... to kill. Now you can argue the reasons,.. patriotism, nationalism,... self defense,.. etc. But a gun has only one purpose, to kill. It doesn't dig ditches, it doesn't make pizza, and it doesn't help to start your car. It's only purpose is to kill. The reasons are irrelevant. Same could be said for the military, it kills to protect,.. it kills to obtain resources,.. it kills to topple other governments and/or help install new, more favorable ones. But the point is,.. it kills. And that's the only thing conservatives truly want to fund. Nevermind that we are already like 25 times stronger then the next closest country. But somehow, conservatives are just never safe enough. More tanks, more guns, more ammo,.. its the only thing they want to pay for. Hell,.. even our veterans (who you would think that they would do stuff for because it's connected to the military) get the short end of the stick. Republican/conservatives have voted down every single veterans bill for the past 50 years or so. Why?? Because even though it's militarily related,.. helping vets is still "helping other people". And to conservative logic,.. helping is the Cardinal sin, and killing is the virtue. Therefore, I stand by my assertion that conservatives "think backwards" to what sane people would consider sound logic. (I've intended this to come across as a well reasoned, logical arguement. It is not intended as a personal attack,.. please don't take it as such. One of the great things about this country, is that we can argue (vehemently if necessary) about our thoughts,.. but still drink a beer together at the end of the day. I understand that some of you will disagree with me. But I hope no one lets this topic ruin any friendships.)
    It's only a flesh wound!!!


  18. #18

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    As a Trump supporter, I am not a very vocal person when it comes to politics. But in response to Webmonkey above, Christians on both the Left and the Right have serious issues when you mix in politics... Most of the New England area Democrats are Catholics, yet they "preach" at the top of their lungs that Abortion is OK, while their Church is "preaching" the exact opposite.

    Some people view the definition of help in different ways. Yes, you have been fired from your job due to economic reasons (not performance issues). Unemployment is there in the short term to provide financial assistance until you (hopefully) find another job. WELFARE is a long term version of Unemployment. While I have no issues with unemployment, because it has a fixed end point, I have serious issues with welfare in its current state. There is no time limit (some families have been on welfare for over a decade) and no checks and balances. Being employed, I am subject to random drug and alcohol screenings to keep my job. There is no such requirement for folks on Welfare. If I choose to have children, I must pay for their needs out of my earnings, and my earnings don't increase at the birth of a child. A welfare family receives more money (up to a point) for each additional child they have. I think the limit is eight, but not taking the time to research it right now. Is that really ... fair, equal, even-handed? Not too sure on what word to use.

    ANY government assistance program needs to receive money from somewhere, whether it is taxes or the government going further into debt. My father didn't graduate high school, but dropped out when he was 17 to enlist in the Army in WWII. He had to work two jobs to put a roof over his family and enough (sometimes) food on the table. He was a member of a Union, but hated it, even though it provided help to him. His thinking was that he, and by extension, his family had to make do with the choices that he made. He instilled in me a need to be "better"... make good grades in school and graduate, possibly attend college and get a degree. In effect, take ownership of my life and work hard. Don't depend on other people to provide for me, but when the opportunity arises, and it doesn't adversely risk my family, help others when able.

    Compare this to people who have made poor choices: getting pregnant in high school, dropping out of high school, abusing alcohol or drugs. While I have compassion for those people, when did it become my responsibility to help them? Yes, I am a Christian. Yes, I will help WHEN I can. FORCING me to do something via taxation is not the answer. If I help everyone to the detriment of my family, my health, even my life, where does it end.

    PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY has been lost.

    One of the planks in the democratic party was Free College Tuition. I won't quote statistics, because they can be made to validate just about any viewpoint. Contact your local school board, contact one in a large (3 million plus population) city, one in a suburb, and one in the country (county less than 200,000). Check the graduation rates and college attendance rates. You will be shocked at the low graduation rates. One county in my state has a <40% graduation rate in the entering Freshman class for those that graduated in 2015. Those same kids had FREE HIGH SCHOOL education, and only a few took advantage of it. Millions of dollars in student scholarships go unclaimed each year. My company gives out $2,000 a year scholarships to the child of an employee that maintains a 3.5 GPA, and reviews the applications for those with a 2.5 to 3.5 and awards $1,000 scholarships to a percentage of them (not all, but some).

    Unfortunately, Greed is a common Sin in the world today. You have something that I don't, so either I can take if from you to get it, or have the government take it from you and share it with me. Some of your comments are blatant generalizations, which does an extreme disservice to both sides. Unfortunately again, these generalizations are being used to separate us, to keep us fighting each other, and, frankly, to control us.

    This is why career politicians need to be stopped. By the time a career politician makes it to Washington, he "owes" so many favors to the people who helped him get there that he no longer hears what the people say, but what the lobbyists and his 'closest supporters' want him to hear.... which is to help the supporters. I know it would become cumbersome, but for every bill that is voted on in the House and/or Senate, each Representative or Senator should be required to poll, via a voting mechanism, to determine what the people they are representing really want.

    This is also why Trump ran against the Democrats, but also against the Republicans, to get elected. Enough of the American people were fed up with the Status Quo. Every presidential candidate has planks in his platform. One of Obama's was health care. Some he got through Congress, some he didn't. The biased media is choosing to only show you what supports their opinion. The Media no longer reports the news, they craft* it. (*and yes, sometimes craft really does mean make it up, or leave out key points that do not support the position the media has taken). Every president has made immigration changes, some by Executive Order, some by working with Congress. Did Obama use Executive Orders to modify Immigration? Yes he did. So why is it OK for Obama, but not OK for Trump?

    Do I, a Christian Republican, want to help Veterans? MOST CERTAINLY. In fact, I would propose that we reduce immigration and financial aid to foreign countries until the Veterans Affairs of this great country are repaired. We can't be helping others until we no longer need to help ourselves.

    We The People have been speaking on such broad terms for so long, that We have lost sight of ourselves. We fight on principles of "Against what you think" instead of compromising to help. Do I believe in Abortion? Maybe... Do I believe in Abortion when the woman didn't have a choice? Yes. Do I believe in Abortion when consensual sex was performed, with the potential outcomes understood, and an possible outcome that is "unwanted" occurs? No,I don't. A young child asks for ice cream. There are two* answers Yes and No (* "maybe later" is an avoidance used by parents to not have a temper tantrum from their child). When the answer is No, a temper tantrum usually occurs until the child is taught the proper response to an adverse answer. We have not been teaching the correct responses to unlikable answers.

    It comes down to this: We need to teach our children to have a life plan, a goal of where they want to be. Then teach them that EVERY choice we make does one of four things: (a) moves us closer to the goal, (b) doesn't move us closer, but also doesn't move us further away, (c) moves us further from our goal, but there is still a chance to get back on track, and (d) derails us from the path so that we can never achieve that goal.

    I read a quote somewhere (probably facebook), that Life is the harshest teacher of all, because first it gives you the test, and then it teaches you the lesson.

    Choices have consequences. Lack of choice also has consequences. I would much rather have the former than the later. Unfortunately, we are trying to minimize the effect of the consequence.
    Last edited by Aerlith Kinspirit; 01-30-2017 at 10:24 PM.

  19. #19

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    Avelorn- thanks for giving me a rough European equivalent to the US's center periphery aspects. I always wondered about that. My European ground experience is pretty much only Germany, so haven't gained a personal perspective for the continent.

    AndyG- I am not offended at all. I think the concerns are legitimate as this presidency is definately different than most of us experience and we humans tend to fear things that are different or that are uncertain. I just feel the at least in the US that the "never Trumpers" are blowing things way out of perspective. I just jump in as I felt the thread was starting to drift off the rails. Also, I think that Britain and the U.S. Will always have an interesting love/hate relationship. (Btw-In all fairness, I never claimed I was not crazy! )

    Zab-you are my kind of nuts. Lol . Interestingly, i was in a Toronto bar during election night. My impression was that all the Canadian's we talked to were better informed about the US election than most Of our citizen's I typically interact with are.

    Webmonkey-we'll have to agree to disagree. A lot of your points are items that have been inaccurately perpetuated by the media regarding the two parties for years. It doesn't take much digging to prove that the Democrat's are the party of big business (the Republican party is the party of the Chamber of Commerce). If you are saying that in general that both parties suck, then I would agree with you as they both want big government as you say. I have voted for candidates of all political affiliation, but have tended to vote Republican more often as it seems that the Democrat party has shifted to the socialist party in the US over the last twenty years. I don't agree with a lot of the current social choices made by folks, but I believe to each his own as long as it doesn't hurt others and isn't forced down my throat and expected of me to pay for it.

    Stay positive everyone!

  20. #20

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    I can see some of your points (even though I disagree with them). The Bible teaches us to help others,.. not "to help others,.. but only if they deserve it". (For the record, this is moot point to for me, being otherwise,.. being that I'm an agnostic/atheist). I was just pointing out that Republicans preach one thing, but their long term actions have shown otherwise. But I also agree that both sides have this in common on various topics. Republicans/conservatives active ideas are actually quite unpopular. This is proven time and time again,.. when people show up in masses to vote, the Republicans lose every time. This is because their ideas only appeals to a minority of people. The only way they ever win, is when democrats/liberals/independents stay home. Which means, by definition, we are now ruling by the wishes of the minority of the people. So much for "we the people" or for democracy ( which by definition is majority rule) . I know we don't live in democracy, we live in a republic,.. but the point still stands. As for Trump himself,.. I don't understand giving the nuclear codes to a narcissistic 5yr old, and thinking that it will end well. I also don't understand the Republicans thought that deregulation of business is a good thing. Businesses have NEVER done the right thing of their own accord. You have to pass laws and regulations to force them to do what's right. For example, back in 1800's, we had children working themselves to death in textile mills. Do you think a bunch check of business men got together and decided to no longer use kids?? Of course not. The people had to band together and "force" the businesses to stop child exploitation. Likewise, in the deep south, the businessmen (plantation owners) didn't suddenly all decide to stop using slaves. We had to fight a war and "force" them to do what was right. Same with 40 hrs work weeks, sick days, minimum wage, etc. Businesses had to be forced to do these things. Their only concern is profits, not people. And if you remove regulations, then they will simply dump their toxic waste in the river,.. if there's nothing to stop them. After all, proper disposal costs money, and they are only concerned with making money,.. not in spending it. Besides, saving that money will cause their stock to go up 1/4 of a point. And stockholders are all that matters. I have more arguements,.. but will await the next rebuttal.
    It's only a flesh wound!!!


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