Charging possible?
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 22

Thread: Charging possible?

  1. #1

    Default Charging possible?

    Here's another situation that came up in a game yesterday:

    Name:  Bildschirmfoto 2018-09-11 um 19.38.18.jpg
Views: 528
Size:  8.6 KB

    Unit 3 wants to charge unit 1. It has clearly to charge the front of unit 1. There's already unit 2 engaged with unit 1, but 50 % to the side of it.

    Unit 3 has got unit 1 in it's LOS, it has to charge the front of unit 1, there is enough space left to align there, and the roll for the charge distance allowed a successful charge.

    When unit 3 touches the base of unit 1, it would still be overlapping unit 2, though. After aligning this overlap would be gone. But since units are not allowed to overlap at the end of a movement, the question is: When exactly does the movement end in the case of a charge?

    Is it the moment when the attacker has reached the defender? Or is it the moment when the aligning is done?

    Since the rules as written list "Align with Enemy" as a separate bullet point, *following* the bullet point concerning "Move attacker", the rules seem to imply that the movement is completed *before* the aligning (and therefore unit 3 couldn't make a successful charge, because it would illegally overlap with unit 2 at this moment). But is it really meant that way?

    Name:  Bildschirmfoto 2018-09-11 um 16.19.35.jpg
Views: 465
Size:  22.4 KB

  2. #2

    Default

    In my opinion this is just a variant of this same thing already asked here:
    http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...eping-distance

  3. #3

    Default

    Yes, I agree. But since this questions didn't get an answer over there, maybe they'll get one here.

    Michael answered to the 1" issue in the thread you linked to, but not on the questions "When exactly – in the case of a charge – does the 'movement' end? (before the aligning or after it?)" and "Is it legal that a unit overlaps another when it stops after reaching the enemy and before aligning?"
    Last edited by Mirawen; 09-11-2018 at 03:12 PM.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fronx View Post
    In my opinion this is just a variant of this same thing already asked here:
    http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...eping-distance
    Unfortunately that question never got answered...

  5. #5

    Default

    Moving and Other Units, Pg. 17
    • A unit may never end a move within 1” of an enemy unit,
    unless that move would bring it into contact with the target
    of its Charge.
    • While moving, units may freely pass through other friendly
    units’ trays, as long as they do not end up overlapping that
    unit’s tray once that move has been completed.



    Charging, Pg. 18
    If all of the above conditions are met, the enemy is a valid target
    for the charge. You will then perform the following steps, in order:

    Determine Line of Sight Arc: You must first determine which
    of the defender’s Line of Sight Arcs (see Line of Sight, pg. 14)
    the attacker is in. If the charge is successful, the attacker will
    end up contacting the enemy in whichever Line of Sight Arc
    it began in. If the attacker’s tray crosses into several of the
    defender’s Line of Sight Arcs, use the one the majority of its
    tray is in. In the event it is exactly 50/50 across different LoS
    Arcs, the attacker may choose the arc.

    Pivot Attacker: The attacker may then pivot to face any
    direction, so long as the targeted enemy remains in its Line of
    Sight after that pivot is completed.

    Roll Charge Distance and Move Attacker: The attacker will
    then roll a D6. This roll, plus the attacker’s Speed Stat, is its total
    charge distance. The attacker is then moved directly forward its
    total charge distance, stopping only if it would contact another
    unit it cannot cross or a Terrain piece it cannot cross (in which
    case, it will stop 1” away from that unit/Terrain piece).
    If, at any
    point during this move, it contacts the targeted enemy’s tray,
    then it was a Successful Charge. If it fails to contact the targeted
    enemy’s tray for any reason (such as rolling too low on its total charge
    distance), the result is a Failed Charge (see next page). Additionally,
    if the attacker rolls a 1 for its charge distance roll, it suffers a
    Disorderly Charge (see next page).

    Align with Enemy: When a unit makes a Successful Charge,
    the attacker will then align with the targeted enemy unit. The
    attacker’s tray is placed so that it is either aligned center-to-center
    with the target’s tray or 50% aligned
    (as to allow another
    friendly unit to later engage that enemy) on the target’s Line of
    Sight Arc previously determined.


    -----------------------------------------


    Short Answer: Yes, this will resolve as in the diagram posed in the question.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 could not have failed to contact Unit 1 due to die-roll result (Unit 1 is within SPD+1" of Unit 3, no other factors influencing example).


    • Unit 3 has met all criteria to Charge, has pivoted, and has now moved to Rolling Charge Distance and Moving Attacker. Unit 3 can legally move over Unit 2, as it is a friendly unit. It contacts the enemy tray during its move, which is the criteria for a Successful Charge. Per Align With Enemy its tray is now placed 50% engaged with Unit 1, resulting in the image shown above. Unit 3 moves on to Resolve Attack.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 had potential to fail to contact Unit 1 based on die-roll (needed 10" worth of movement, for example, and after roll only had 7").

    • Unit 3 would be moved forward, attempting to move the total distance rolled. It could not clear Unit 2, however, with the total distance rolled, and cannot end that move overlapping them. This would result in Unit 3 stopping in contact with Unit 2, having moved as far as it could legally move, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Just to add some other examples with semi-similar situations:


    Example: Unit 2 is an Enemy Unit.

    • Charge would fail because Unit 3 cannot cross Unit 2 (being that it is an enemy, and you may never pass through enemy unit's trays, per Pg. 15, Moving and Other Units). It would stop 1" from Unit 2, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Example: Unit 1 and Unit 2 are 100% aligned.

    • In this case the Charge could not even be declared as Unit 1 is not a valid target, per Pg. 18.
    Designer and Senior Developer
    A Song of Ice and Fire, Dark Age, Rum & Bones, World of SMOG: Rise of Moloch, Wrath of Kings, Xenoshyft

  6. #6

    Default

    Thanks for your answer, Michael. It is really appreciated.

    So in summary one could either say that the aligning is seen as part of the movement with respect to overlapping trays, or that the rule that trays may not overlap at the end of a movement doesn't apply in the case of a charge.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Michael Shinall View Post
    Moving and Other Units, Pg. 17
    • A unit may never end a move within 1” of an enemy unit,
    unless that move would bring it into contact with the target
    of its Charge.
    • While moving, units may freely pass through other friendly
    units’ trays, as long as they do not end up overlapping that
    unit’s tray once that move has been completed.



    Charging, Pg. 18
    If all of the above conditions are met, the enemy is a valid target
    for the charge. You will then perform the following steps, in order:

    Determine Line of Sight Arc: You must first determine which
    of the defender’s Line of Sight Arcs (see Line of Sight, pg. 14)
    the attacker is in. If the charge is successful, the attacker will
    end up contacting the enemy in whichever Line of Sight Arc
    it began in. If the attacker’s tray crosses into several of the
    defender’s Line of Sight Arcs, use the one the majority of its
    tray is in. In the event it is exactly 50/50 across different LoS
    Arcs, the attacker may choose the arc.

    Pivot Attacker: The attacker may then pivot to face any
    direction, so long as the targeted enemy remains in its Line of
    Sight after that pivot is completed.

    Roll Charge Distance and Move Attacker: The attacker will
    then roll a D6. This roll, plus the attacker’s Speed Stat, is its total
    charge distance. The attacker is then moved directly forward its
    total charge distance, stopping only if it would contact another
    unit it cannot cross or a Terrain piece it cannot cross (in which
    case, it will stop 1” away from that unit/Terrain piece).
    If, at any
    point during this move, it contacts the targeted enemy’s tray,
    then it was a Successful Charge. If it fails to contact the targeted
    enemy’s tray for any reason (such as rolling too low on its total charge
    distance), the result is a Failed Charge (see next page). Additionally,
    if the attacker rolls a 1 for its charge distance roll, it suffers a
    Disorderly Charge (see next page).

    Align with Enemy: When a unit makes a Successful Charge,
    the attacker will then align with the targeted enemy unit. The
    attacker’s tray is placed so that it is either aligned center-to-center
    with the target’s tray or 50% aligned
    (as to allow another
    friendly unit to later engage that enemy) on the target’s Line of
    Sight Arc previously determined.


    -----------------------------------------


    Short Answer: Yes, this will resolve as in the diagram posed in the question.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 could not have failed to contact Unit 1 due to die-roll result (Unit 1 is within SPD+1" of Unit 3, no other factors influencing example).


    • Unit 3 has met all criteria to Charge, has pivoted, and has now moved to Rolling Charge Distance and Moving Attacker. Unit 3 can legally move over Unit 2, as it is a friendly unit. It contacts the enemy tray during its move, which is the criteria for a Successful Charge. Per Align With Enemy its tray is now placed 50% engaged with Unit 1, resulting in the image shown above. Unit 3 moves on to Resolve Attack.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 had potential to fail to contact Unit 1 based on die-roll (needed 10" worth of movement, for example, and after roll only had 7").

    • Unit 3 would be moved forward, attempting to move the total distance rolled. It could not clear Unit 2, however, with the total distance rolled, and cannot end that move overlapping them. This would result in Unit 3 stopping in contact with Unit 2, having moved as far as it could legally move, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Just to add some other examples with semi-similar situations:


    Example: Unit 2 is an Enemy Unit.

    • Charge would fail because Unit 3 cannot cross Unit 2 (being that it is an enemy, and you may never pass through enemy unit's trays, per Pg. 15, Moving and Other Units). It would stop 1" from Unit 2, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Example: Unit 1 and Unit 2 are 100% aligned.

    • In this case the Charge could not even be declared as Unit 1 is not a valid target, per Pg. 18.
    So then alignment is part of the movement of a charge, the timing and wording charge would not suggest this? Because in the first example wouldn’t unit 3 be ending it’s movement overlapping a friendly unit before it aligns? Is shifting considered movement?

  8. #8

    Default Charging possible

    Hello,

    here something new



    Name:  Folie1.JPG
Views: 342
Size:  77.4 KBName:  Folie2.JPG
Views: 347
Size:  76.5 KBName:  Folie3.JPG
Views: 343
Size:  90.7 KBName:  Folie4.JPG
Views: 345
Size:  58.1 KB

  9. #9

    Default

    No. you don't have to move away 1".

    This was answered by Michael over here: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...eping-distance

    Name:  Bildschirmfoto 2018-09-12 um 12.40.03.jpg
Views: 340
Size:  21.5 KB

    The 1" rule isn't applied in a charge. (Neither the "no overlap at the ending of a move" (i. e. before the aligning), as it seems.)
    Last edited by Mirawen; 09-12-2018 at 07:44 AM.

  10. #10

    Default

    I have a follow-up question on this topic, not about the rules but about the thought process in it. Would you be willing to provide any of the thought process that went into allowing odd charges like the one in the diagram?

    I also have a rules question as in this thread http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...I-attack/page2 you said that a unit can't end the pivot step over a unit as that's not legal, but why can you then end the move step over top a friendly unit which is not a valid move. I don't understand why 1 step needs to follow normal rules before moving on but the next does not.
    Last edited by TarkL; 09-12-2018 at 03:24 PM. Reason: typos

  11. #11

    Default

    I want to say first of all I love the miniatures for this game and I thought the rules as written were fine. However, after seeing the posts and the responses on this thread I am losing interest fast. I thought this was going to be a war game with cards. Instead you are turning it into a card game with miniatures. After seeing some of the “rulings” it is clear to me that the models are meant to be eye candy and that there is no intent to keep this a proper war game/miniature game. I guess I will just use the miniatures with other rulesets that are written to simulate combat instead of the abstract mockery you are turning this game into.

  12. #12

    Default

    Michael,

    Thanks for your attention to people's questions. I had a similar question to what TarkL just posted. In this thread: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...2-Can-I-attack you made a point to emphasize that the movement steps in the charge are distinct and that the conditions of each step need to be resolved before moving to the next step. If that is the case, then I don't see how the above situation is legal. You have ended step two and you are overlapping another unit, which is not allowed when ending a move. It seems that in this example you have combined steps 2 and 3 into one a single movement unit.

    What about this example, unit 3 wants to charge unit 1. (blue=stark, red=lannister)
    Name:  units.jpg
Views: 232
Size:  8.0 KB

    It must pivot first to do so, the but pivot would end up overlapping another unit. Your earlier ruling would say this charge is not allowed, but it doesn't "feel" that different from the example shown above that was allowed.

    Is there a reason for not linking the movement steps for a charge, yet linking them for other actions (like maneuvers and marches)? I feel like things would be much cleaner if they were. The charge in the example from the other thread would still not be allowed since it would require not only pivoting through an enemy unit (which is allowed) but moving forward through the enemy unit (not allowed). If all the movement steps of an action are linked together, then all you have to worry about is the state after all movement is completed. You just need to verify that after the charge is done and you are ready for the attack step that (1) you are not overlapping a tray, and (2) you did not move through enemy units (except as a pivot).

    Thanks for the great game!
    Last edited by wilesps; 09-17-2018 at 12:04 PM. Reason: fixed image

  13. #13

    Default

    Good question wilesps, I'm wondering this myself too.

  14. #14

    Default

    That to has been covered in another topic. The pivot is not part of the charge movement. Do you can not charge because you can't make a legal pivot. Page 7 under Pivot.

  15. #15

    Default

    I understand. I indicated that the situation I presented would not be legal for the very reason you stated. There are five bullet points in the charge action. It has been ruled that the pivot step is separate from the next step (roll charge distance and move attacker). But what about the next bullet (align with enemy)? If the move attacker and align with enemy steps are separated like the pivot and move attacker steps are, then the situation presented by the OP would not be legal as you cannot end movement overlapping another unit (via moving and other units box on page 15). I just want that clarified because it is counterintuitive that some of the bullets are separate actions that must be completed in step, while some are not.

    I only presented the diagram that I did because this situation "feels" the same to me as the original one, namely a unit wants to charge, and a friendly unit is in the way. If unit 3 were just a bit down (so the circle doesn't overlap unit 2) then the charge would be legal.

    In the end, one could say these are kind of corner cases and could easily be avoided by smarter positioning of one's units. But the situation I presented could arise due to unit 1 threatening unit 3's flank (maybe off screen, not in its current position), unit 2 charges at unit 1 to save unit 3's bacon, but rolls miserably on their charge. Now unit 1 counter charges, but also rolls poorly. Lucky day for unit 3, except now they are stuck and cannot charge either.

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wilesps View Post
    In the end, one could say these are kind of corner cases and could easily be avoided by smarter positioning of one's units. But the situation I presented could arise ...
    Similar situations are very easy to happen in the game. This is just variant of following:

    Imagine your two units have engaged one same enemy, on its same flank, 50% and 50% (Quite easy and common scenario to happen!).

    Then the enemy retreats to its side (or maybe even dies on its own).
    - Now your units cannot do the pivot those would be allowed to, as they are next to each other, side to side conneted (0 millimeters space between them, blocking each other) They could maybe turn their backs to each other (90 degrees), or turn around (180 degrees), but thats basically it.
    - Also now your units are hard to Charge, as they can only Charge in direct line forward (as no room to pivot as they are next to each other). 1st one of them would need to Maneuver to give room for pivots.


    But I quess that is how it is (in most miniature wargames). I'll just have to consider it as a price to pay for getting two units to attack on same side of an enemy; maneuvering afterwards becomes hard.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fronx View Post
    Imagine your two units have engaged one same enemy, on its same flank, 50% and 50% (Quite easy and common scenario to happen!).
    Hah, yeah, that is a much better example. Though, the units could still pivot after the opponent retreats. Here's a picture:



    I am assuming that both are allowed to pivot simultaneously. The wording in the retreat section is, "each of those enemies may immediately perform a free pivot," so that seems reasonable to me. If I am wrong about that, then you can still pivot them, but one needs to pivot past the point where the circles intersect to get out of the way of the other.

    Still, your example does a nice job of illustrating how unintuitive the charging situation is (to me at least, maybe it is very clear for others). Consider the following picture (lines included to emphasize that everyone has line of site on unit 6):


    Units 3,4, and 5 can charge, but units 1 and 2 cannot. If you showed this picture to someone who has not read the forums and you only told them that it was ruled that units 3, 4, and 5 could charge, I would bet that they would expect that units 1 and 2 could as well.

    But, as you say, maybe this is intentional to create a risk/reward decision point when considering doubling up on a single unit.

    [edit to get pictures to show properly]
    Last edited by wilesps; 09-21-2018 at 04:25 PM. Reason: not able to upload pictures

  18. #18

    Default

    Simultaneous effects need to be done in order still, by the rule book:

    The rule book says something like this (not direct quote): if you have multiple actions happening at the same time, player in turn gets to choose in what order he does them (but nothing is being said that he can do them at the same time, they happen one by one).

    (Hope you get that image, I replied without seeing the image just to that one part of the text).

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fronx View Post
    Simultaneous effects need to be done in order still, by the rule book:
    Ah, right, sorry about that. Okay, then it would be something like this:


    Unit 1 pivots first, then unit 2 has room to do its pivot. If unit 2 needs to pivot more, unit 1 can pivot a bit more clockwise to accommodate that.

    edit - though, I may be off on the aspect ratio of the tray. I went with 3x4. If it is more square, then that leaves a bit less room to maneuver around each other. But it is still possible.
    edit 2 - yeah, I am off. They have dimension 14x12. So it is a bit less freedom than in that picture, but can still do some pivoting.
    Last edited by wilesps; 09-21-2018 at 05:42 PM. Reason: considering dimension of tray

  20. #20

    Default

    I honestly no longer expect all the inconsistencies to be reconciled under a common set of logic. The language in the rule book is too loose.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Privacy Policy  |   Terms and Conditions  |   Contact Us  |   The Legion


Copyright © 2001-2018 CMON Inc.

-->