Charging possible?
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Thread: Charging possible?

  1. #1

    Default Charging possible?

    Here's another situation that came up in a game yesterday:

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    Unit 3 wants to charge unit 1. It has clearly to charge the front of unit 1. There's already unit 2 engaged with unit 1, but 50 % to the side of it.

    Unit 3 has got unit 1 in it's LOS, it has to charge the front of unit 1, there is enough space left to align there, and the roll for the charge distance allowed a successful charge.

    When unit 3 touches the base of unit 1, it would still be overlapping unit 2, though. After aligning this overlap would be gone. But since units are not allowed to overlap at the end of a movement, the question is: When exactly does the movement end in the case of a charge?

    Is it the moment when the attacker has reached the defender? Or is it the moment when the aligning is done?

    Since the rules as written list "Align with Enemy" as a separate bullet point, *following* the bullet point concerning "Move attacker", the rules seem to imply that the movement is completed *before* the aligning (and therefore unit 3 couldn't make a successful charge, because it would illegally overlap with unit 2 at this moment). But is it really meant that way?

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  2. #2

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    In my opinion this is just a variant of this same thing already asked here:
    http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...eping-distance

  3. #3

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    Yes, I agree. But since this questions didn't get an answer over there, maybe they'll get one here.

    Michael answered to the 1" issue in the thread you linked to, but not on the questions "When exactly – in the case of a charge – does the 'movement' end? (before the aligning or after it?)" and "Is it legal that a unit overlaps another when it stops after reaching the enemy and before aligning?"
    Last edited by Mirawen; 09-11-2018 at 02:12 PM.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fronx View Post
    In my opinion this is just a variant of this same thing already asked here:
    http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...eping-distance
    Unfortunately that question never got answered...

  5. #5

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    Moving and Other Units, Pg. 17
    • A unit may never end a move within 1” of an enemy unit,
    unless that move would bring it into contact with the target
    of its Charge.
    • While moving, units may freely pass through other friendly
    units’ trays, as long as they do not end up overlapping that
    unit’s tray once that move has been completed.



    Charging, Pg. 18
    If all of the above conditions are met, the enemy is a valid target
    for the charge. You will then perform the following steps, in order:

    Determine Line of Sight Arc: You must first determine which
    of the defender’s Line of Sight Arcs (see Line of Sight, pg. 14)
    the attacker is in. If the charge is successful, the attacker will
    end up contacting the enemy in whichever Line of Sight Arc
    it began in. If the attacker’s tray crosses into several of the
    defender’s Line of Sight Arcs, use the one the majority of its
    tray is in. In the event it is exactly 50/50 across different LoS
    Arcs, the attacker may choose the arc.

    Pivot Attacker: The attacker may then pivot to face any
    direction, so long as the targeted enemy remains in its Line of
    Sight after that pivot is completed.

    Roll Charge Distance and Move Attacker: The attacker will
    then roll a D6. This roll, plus the attacker’s Speed Stat, is its total
    charge distance. The attacker is then moved directly forward its
    total charge distance, stopping only if it would contact another
    unit it cannot cross or a Terrain piece it cannot cross (in which
    case, it will stop 1” away from that unit/Terrain piece).
    If, at any
    point during this move, it contacts the targeted enemy’s tray,
    then it was a Successful Charge. If it fails to contact the targeted
    enemy’s tray for any reason (such as rolling too low on its total charge
    distance), the result is a Failed Charge (see next page). Additionally,
    if the attacker rolls a 1 for its charge distance roll, it suffers a
    Disorderly Charge (see next page).

    Align with Enemy: When a unit makes a Successful Charge,
    the attacker will then align with the targeted enemy unit. The
    attacker’s tray is placed so that it is either aligned center-to-center
    with the target’s tray or 50% aligned
    (as to allow another
    friendly unit to later engage that enemy) on the target’s Line of
    Sight Arc previously determined.


    -----------------------------------------


    Short Answer: Yes, this will resolve as in the diagram posed in the question.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 could not have failed to contact Unit 1 due to die-roll result (Unit 1 is within SPD+1" of Unit 3, no other factors influencing example).


    • Unit 3 has met all criteria to Charge, has pivoted, and has now moved to Rolling Charge Distance and Moving Attacker. Unit 3 can legally move over Unit 2, as it is a friendly unit. It contacts the enemy tray during its move, which is the criteria for a Successful Charge. Per Align With Enemy its tray is now placed 50% engaged with Unit 1, resulting in the image shown above. Unit 3 moves on to Resolve Attack.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 had potential to fail to contact Unit 1 based on die-roll (needed 10" worth of movement, for example, and after roll only had 7").

    • Unit 3 would be moved forward, attempting to move the total distance rolled. It could not clear Unit 2, however, with the total distance rolled, and cannot end that move overlapping them. This would result in Unit 3 stopping in contact with Unit 2, having moved as far as it could legally move, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Just to add some other examples with semi-similar situations:


    Example: Unit 2 is an Enemy Unit.

    • Charge would fail because Unit 3 cannot cross Unit 2 (being that it is an enemy, and you may never pass through enemy unit's trays, per Pg. 15, Moving and Other Units). It would stop 1" from Unit 2, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Example: Unit 1 and Unit 2 are 100% aligned.

    • In this case the Charge could not even be declared as Unit 1 is not a valid target, per Pg. 18.
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  6. #6

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    Thanks for your answer, Michael. It is really appreciated.

    So in summary one could either say that the aligning is seen as part of the movement with respect to overlapping trays, or that the rule that trays may not overlap at the end of a movement doesn't apply in the case of a charge.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Michael Shinall View Post
    Moving and Other Units, Pg. 17
    • A unit may never end a move within 1” of an enemy unit,
    unless that move would bring it into contact with the target
    of its Charge.
    • While moving, units may freely pass through other friendly
    units’ trays, as long as they do not end up overlapping that
    unit’s tray once that move has been completed.



    Charging, Pg. 18
    If all of the above conditions are met, the enemy is a valid target
    for the charge. You will then perform the following steps, in order:

    Determine Line of Sight Arc: You must first determine which
    of the defender’s Line of Sight Arcs (see Line of Sight, pg. 14)
    the attacker is in. If the charge is successful, the attacker will
    end up contacting the enemy in whichever Line of Sight Arc
    it began in. If the attacker’s tray crosses into several of the
    defender’s Line of Sight Arcs, use the one the majority of its
    tray is in. In the event it is exactly 50/50 across different LoS
    Arcs, the attacker may choose the arc.

    Pivot Attacker: The attacker may then pivot to face any
    direction, so long as the targeted enemy remains in its Line of
    Sight after that pivot is completed.

    Roll Charge Distance and Move Attacker: The attacker will
    then roll a D6. This roll, plus the attacker’s Speed Stat, is its total
    charge distance. The attacker is then moved directly forward its
    total charge distance, stopping only if it would contact another
    unit it cannot cross or a Terrain piece it cannot cross (in which
    case, it will stop 1” away from that unit/Terrain piece).
    If, at any
    point during this move, it contacts the targeted enemy’s tray,
    then it was a Successful Charge. If it fails to contact the targeted
    enemy’s tray for any reason (such as rolling too low on its total charge
    distance), the result is a Failed Charge (see next page). Additionally,
    if the attacker rolls a 1 for its charge distance roll, it suffers a
    Disorderly Charge (see next page).

    Align with Enemy: When a unit makes a Successful Charge,
    the attacker will then align with the targeted enemy unit. The
    attacker’s tray is placed so that it is either aligned center-to-center
    with the target’s tray or 50% aligned
    (as to allow another
    friendly unit to later engage that enemy) on the target’s Line of
    Sight Arc previously determined.


    -----------------------------------------


    Short Answer: Yes, this will resolve as in the diagram posed in the question.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 could not have failed to contact Unit 1 due to die-roll result (Unit 1 is within SPD+1" of Unit 3, no other factors influencing example).


    • Unit 3 has met all criteria to Charge, has pivoted, and has now moved to Rolling Charge Distance and Moving Attacker. Unit 3 can legally move over Unit 2, as it is a friendly unit. It contacts the enemy tray during its move, which is the criteria for a Successful Charge. Per Align With Enemy its tray is now placed 50% engaged with Unit 1, resulting in the image shown above. Unit 3 moves on to Resolve Attack.



    Example: Let's assign it that Unit 3 had potential to fail to contact Unit 1 based on die-roll (needed 10" worth of movement, for example, and after roll only had 7").

    • Unit 3 would be moved forward, attempting to move the total distance rolled. It could not clear Unit 2, however, with the total distance rolled, and cannot end that move overlapping them. This would result in Unit 3 stopping in contact with Unit 2, having moved as far as it could legally move, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Just to add some other examples with semi-similar situations:


    Example: Unit 2 is an Enemy Unit.

    • Charge would fail because Unit 3 cannot cross Unit 2 (being that it is an enemy, and you may never pass through enemy unit's trays, per Pg. 15, Moving and Other Units). It would stop 1" from Unit 2, resulting in a Failed Charge.


    Example: Unit 1 and Unit 2 are 100% aligned.

    • In this case the Charge could not even be declared as Unit 1 is not a valid target, per Pg. 18.
    So then alignment is part of the movement of a charge, the timing and wording charge would not suggest this? Because in the first example wouldn’t unit 3 be ending it’s movement overlapping a friendly unit before it aligns? Is shifting considered movement?

  8. #8

    Default Charging possible

    Hello,

    here something new



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  9. #9

    Default

    No. you don't have to move away 1".

    This was answered by Michael over here: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...eping-distance

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    The 1" rule isn't applied in a charge. (Neither the "no overlap at the ending of a move" (i. e. before the aligning), as it seems.)
    Last edited by Mirawen; 09-12-2018 at 06:44 AM.

  10. #10

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    I have a follow-up question on this topic, not about the rules but about the thought process in it. Would you be willing to provide any of the thought process that went into allowing odd charges like the one in the diagram?

    I also have a rules question as in this thread http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...I-attack/page2 you said that a unit can't end the pivot step over a unit as that's not legal, but why can you then end the move step over top a friendly unit which is not a valid move. I don't understand why 1 step needs to follow normal rules before moving on but the next does not.
    Last edited by TarkL; 09-12-2018 at 02:24 PM. Reason: typos

  11. #11

    Default

    Michael,

    Thanks for your attention to people's questions. I had a similar question to what TarkL just posted. In this thread: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...2-Can-I-attack you made a point to emphasize that the movement steps in the charge are distinct and that the conditions of each step need to be resolved before moving to the next step. If that is the case, then I don't see how the above situation is legal. You have ended step two and you are overlapping another unit, which is not allowed when ending a move. It seems that in this example you have combined steps 2 and 3 into one a single movement unit.

    What about this example, unit 3 wants to charge unit 1. (blue=stark, red=lannister)
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    It must pivot first to do so, the but pivot would end up overlapping another unit. Your earlier ruling would say this charge is not allowed, but it doesn't "feel" that different from the example shown above that was allowed.

    Is there a reason for not linking the movement steps for a charge, yet linking them for other actions (like maneuvers and marches)? I feel like things would be much cleaner if they were. The charge in the example from the other thread would still not be allowed since it would require not only pivoting through an enemy unit (which is allowed) but moving forward through the enemy unit (not allowed). If all the movement steps of an action are linked together, then all you have to worry about is the state after all movement is completed. You just need to verify that after the charge is done and you are ready for the attack step that (1) you are not overlapping a tray, and (2) you did not move through enemy units (except as a pivot).

    Thanks for the great game!
    Last edited by wilesps; Yesterday at 11:04 AM. Reason: fixed image

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