Definition of Tactic Board Bonus, claim a zone effects, Varys - Page 3
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Thread: Definition of Tactic Board Bonus, claim a zone effects, Varys

  1. #41

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    Ok, read over everything and we're on the same page as far as what is being said/asked here.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but to summarize:

    Issue here is as follows:
    1. Vary triggers when an enemy NCU claims a zone of the Tactics Board, which is the same trigger as, well, a ton of NCU effects.
    2. Because the triggers are the same, by the Simultaneous Actions rule, the active player's effect (aka the NCU) resolves first, before Varys has a chance to cancel. Which means that, due to that specific rule interaction, Varys essentially can never actually cancel an NCU's triggered effect.

    Points:
    1. I want to assume that everyone is on the same page that that interaction isn't intentional, because otherwise Vary's effect would, quite literally in this case, never be able to be used.
    2. The issue stems from a wonky rules interaction, caused by Vary's trigger being "When an enemy NCU claims a zone on the Tactics Board" rather than, I don't know, something specifically placing it before the other effect takes place (much like how "Counterplot" operates- the only similar "canceling" effect in the game).
    3. I know I preach "rules as written" but I will also admit this seems like a situation where rules interactions are creating an unexpected problem, because if you just read Varys by himself, it's exceedingly clear how he's supposed to work and operate, it's only when you include the Simultaneous Actions rule that it breaks down (and I honestly don't believe its intentional, for two reasons:
    1. as cited above, it literally makes it so Varys doesn't do anything and
    2. it's a far more complicated interaction than anything else presented so far- most everything is very straightforward, but this situation requires micro-rules interactions, checks, etc etc). Specifically I want to call out those who say "Well that means this part of the effect wouldn't work, but this one would, etc etc"- That's far more complex/specific than any other interaction so far. Everything else has been very "cut-and-dry" cancel whole effect or not- nothing has been "stop part of an effect but not all of it".

    Solutions:
    1. I again was to re-iterate that I hope everyone is on the same page as to how this should operate- that, you know, Varys actually does stuff.
    2. This one seems like it would need an official errata/FAQ, because as I stated at the start, the literal wording here is actually the issue. Basically, for it to work "properly" Varys can't have the same trigger as the effect (because the Simultaneous Action rule is what's causing the problem in the first place)- he needs to have one that triggers "in response" to the effect happening, or something like that.
    Last edited by Alliser Thorne; 11-07-2018 at 10:41 AM.

  2. #42

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    Dear Sir Allister,

    I really hope that this will be FAQed and I will put this in the Unofficial FAQ on our facebook group just like you just explained it.
    Now I will change that if there would be an official statement or FAQ that agrees with the less powerful interpretation of Varys
    But honestly, that would make Varys feel neutered,...... Oh snap I went there
    ;-)

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by JeppeP View Post
    Dear Sir Allister,

    I really hope that this will be FAQed and I will put this in the Unofficial FAQ on our facebook group just like you just explained it.
    Now I will change that if there would be an official statement or FAQ that agrees with the less powerful interpretation of Varys
    But honestly, that would make Varys feel neutered,...... Oh snap I went there
    ;-)

    It's not so much about "power level" here for me (yes, Varys is good, but he's slave to dice rolls to actually be useful), it's about rules-complexity and interaction. If you play it one way, it's simple and acts like everything else presented in a similar fashion in the game... If you play it the other way, it's a hodge-podge of interactions that don't appear anywhere else in the game and requires the player to have acute knowledge of very specific rules-interactions, which again I cannot see as the intended way from a game-design standpoint ("Let's make this specific case super complicated!").

    That's why this is one of the few times for me that I have to side on "intent" versus "literal wording", and I hate doing that in most all cases.

  4. #44

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    Edit #2 here: Alliser! My Sworn Brother-Friend! I just read your quote in the other thread defending that fact that Roose would trigger BEFORE Varys, so.... why not Pycelle??

    Small Correction to the large post above:
    " Issue here is as follows: add: by wording of rulebook, it seems the bonus awarded by claiming a zone is also a triggered effect - rules cited earlier"
    also add: and it has been made clear recently that Varys would trigger AFTER tactic cards(and Roose Bolton perhaps) played by the active player due to another thread "

    Also, obeying the rules in not complicated, Varys makes it complicated. Which brings us to the point of the thread.

    You just laid out almost everything I have been trying to say. I don't understand why. Perhaps I wasn't clear so thank you if that is the case.

    Which brings us the main goal here. Varys has been confusing people. And this thread paired with the other most recent one about him explains why. Earlier in this thread I was being argued with because some folks literally didn't realize the active player RESOLVED triggered effects before the defending player even had a chance to activate same-trigger effects. Why? Because Varys!

    Also, There was another point made that the defending players same-trigger effect would be declared after the active players effect (before resolved) which would have a chance to actually disrupt or change the outcome of the active players triggered effect!! Bonkers. Why is this happening!? Ill tell you why - Because Varys. lol

    The core rules are simple. Varys Messes that up. Which thematically...... is PERFECT! lol But still, clarification needed... Which I have laid out the options I think could be relevant.. and I will again:

    - trigger is wrong, as Alliser reiterated for me above, is should be phrased like counterplot, or something like "When an Ncu activates.... followed by... prevent any effect from tactic board or.... NCU loses all abilities" Edited here: Which is how I've been playing him, because his card seems intended to do this
    - Or it could be, that involuntary and voluntary effects have different timing.
    - Or it could be, that everything is absolutely fine, except the tactic board effect is not really a triggered effect but more of the last step of the action, AND Varys does not block all NCUs, including but not limited to : Pycelle, Aemon, Rodriks vulnerable token, Cats remove token effect, etc....

    I am literally happy with ANY of the these options, or even one that I didn't list, like let's say.... "Varys is the master of time and space so he just does it all" that's fine too.
    Last edited by TheRedGod; 11-07-2018 at 01:16 PM.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRedGod View Post
    But still, clarification needed... Which I have laid out the options I think could be relevant.. and I will again:

    - trigger is wrong, as Alliser reiterated for me above, is should be phrased like counterplot, or something like "When an Ncu activates.... followed by... prevent any effect from tactic board or.... NCU loses all abilities" Edited here: Which is how I've been playing him, because his card seems intended to do this
    If his trigger was "When an enemy NCU would claim a zone on the Tactics Board" there would literally be zero issue with the application, resolution, and interaction with his effect. Adding that one word removes all issues as it sets his trigger both prior-to and differently than all other effects.

    To be honest, I have a hard time understanding who is being "confused" by this to begin with. As I previously stated, if you just read Varys, it's exceeding clear how he is supposed to operate. If you're a player that just reads the card and that's it, I can't see what would confuse you: "Oh, Varys can cancel effects. Cool."

    The only time it gets muddled is if you have specific and precise knowledge of Simultaneous Actions and how they are supposed to be applied (aka, what is causing this chat to begin with), and frankly, if you have enough foresight and knowledge to understand that, then you should also have enough sense to understand how this is supposed to work.

    Basically, if you're reading this rule/interaction, your takeaway-outcome-options are:

    1. "Since we have the same trigger, we must reference the Simultaneous Actions rule, which means your effect resolves first, aka the effect I'm potentially going to cancel. So it fully resolves, meaning I actually never had an opportunity to cancel it to begin with, so either its retroactively undone, or I could never cancel it to begin with. But that's only the case with THIS type of triggered effect that happens when I claim a zone. If it's an Influence effect then I suppose that part can be cancelled. Oh, and if my NCU had both a triggered effect and an Influence then only the Influence part would have been stopped, but again, because Simultaneous Actions said yours resolved first, then the first part actually worked."

    or

    2. "Varys can try to cancel your effect when you claim a Tactics Zone. It worked. Your effect was cancelled. Resolve the Tactics Zone and move on."


    I don't feel I'm oversimplifying that to prove a point, that is literally the crux-argument being made here.

    I still feel, even after seeing the points here, that this is being debated/argued for the sake of being debated/argued.

    Is anyone, and I mean the poster specifically, not some "hypothetical opponent", actually playing Varys trying to make this argument?




    Quote Originally Posted by TheRedGod View Post
    - Or it could be, that involuntary and voluntary effects have different timing.
    No, because the rules do not say they do.

    The only mention is that if multiple effects are controlled by the same player:
    1. They must resolve Mandatory effects, and may only resolve 1 Voluntary effect.
    2. They choose the order in which those effects are resolved.




    Quote Originally Posted by TheRedGod View Post
    - Or it could be, that everything is absolutely fine, except the tactic board effect is not really a triggered effect but more of the last step of the action, AND Varys does not block all NCUs, including but not limited to : Pycelle, Aemon, Rodriks vulnerable token, Cats remove token effect, etc....
    Again, I cannot fathom in any world how this one is the intended interaction, because it is literally a different level of complexity and resolution than any other interaction and effect in the game. If this is somehow the "intended way" its supposed to work, it would require the player to not only know the specific interactions of very specific rules (NOT expressly laid out on the cards) and be the only effect in the game that only stops "part of something"- which you wouldn't even be able to infer from just reading the cards. Also, even the conclusion "Oh, he stops THIS part but not THAT part" is even a stretch coming to that conclusion, ignoring anything else.
    Last edited by Alliser Thorne; 11-07-2018 at 02:01 PM.

  6. #46

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    Fixing it like giving it Intrigue and subterfuge would not work because this would give him 2 triggers because the zone would not be claimed then.
    The best "fix" is give the first option: "cancel all abilities from the NCU and they lose it for the rest of the round"

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