Blackfish's Resolve / Bravery in the Face of Death
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Thread: Blackfish's Resolve / Bravery in the Face of Death

  1. #1

    Default Blackfish's Resolve / Bravery in the Face of Death

    Few questions RE: 'Passing a Morale Test' trigger.


    1. Are 'Blackfish's Resolve / Bravery in the Face of Death' voluntary effects and subject to the 'one voluntary trigger per effect' verbiage found in the Timing Conflicts and Simultaneous Actions sections on pg. 23 of the rulebook or can they be triggered at the same time?
    2. Can they be used alongside tactics cards that trigger when a morale test is passed?
    3. Can they be used when passing a morale test as part of the Feast for Crows scenario?


    It's not clear due to the ruling on Stark Fury as being a mandatory effect. The use of the word 'may' would seem to indicate these are effects are voluntary but Stark Fury also includes the word 'may' and it was ruled to be mandatory and not subject to the 'one voluntary trigger per effect' ruling in the timing conflicts / simultaneous actions sections.

  2. #2

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    1. Blackfish's Resolve is absolutely a mandatory effect nothing in the text gives you the option of NOT doing it. The fact it's 100% beneficial doesn't matter (It does, however, let you return UP TO 1 wound... so technically you could return 0, if you're not into healing for whatever reason). Hypothetical situation was if say, a hypothetical ability existed that wounded a unit for using Abilities- Resolve would always trigger that, incurring said wounds each time.

    Bravery in the Face of Death is 100% voluntary, it uses the word "may", and you have to spend a resource (Order Token) to use it. I'm not even sure how one could argue that this is a mandatory effect, given those two points..

    2. Resolve- yes, as, again, it's a mandatory effect and the limit is only 1 voluntary trigger per event. Bravery, no, for the same reason- you cannot activate two voluntary triggers off the same event.

    3 Yes, why wouldn't you? You passed a Morale Test and nothing in the Feast For Crows rules says otherwise.

    Stark Fury was ruled as mandatory because you ALWAYS have to decide if you're going to utilize the benefit and suffer damage as a result. The effect will always trigger when you attack- deciding to suffer Wounds for the benefit is part of the effect, it is not the trigger. It's the same for Blackfish's Resolve- at no point do you ever declare "I'm using Blackfish's Resolve"- it automatically happens every time you pass a Morale Test, whether you want it to or not- same as Stark Fury- it happens every time you attack, period.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    1. Blackfish's Resolve is absolutely a mandatory effect nothing in the text gives you the option of NOT doing it. The fact it's 100% beneficial doesn't matter (It does, however, let you return UP TO 1 wound... so technically you could return 0, if you're not into healing for whatever reason). Hypothetical situation was if say, a hypothetical ability existed that wounded a unit for using Abilities- Resolve would always trigger that, incurring said wounds each time.

    Bravery in the Face of Death is 100% voluntary, it uses the word "may", and you have to spend a resource (Order Token) to use it. I'm not even sure how one could argue that this is a mandatory effect, given those two points..

    2. Resolve- yes, as, again, it's a mandatory effect and the limit is only 1 voluntary trigger per event. Bravery, no, for the same reason- you cannot activate two voluntary triggers off the same event.

    3 Yes, why wouldn't you? You passed a Morale Test and nothing in the Feast For Crows rules says otherwise.

    Stark Fury was ruled as mandatory because you ALWAYS have to decide if you're going to utilize the benefit and suffer damage as a result. The effect will always trigger when you attack- deciding to suffer Wounds for the benefit is part of the effect, it is not the trigger. It's the same for Blackfish's Resolve- at no point do you ever declare "I'm using Blackfish's Resolve"- it automatically happens every time you pass a Morale Test, whether you want it to or not- same as Stark Fury- it happens every time you attack, period.
    I appreciate the response, and it very well may be correctbut I'm interested in being able to apply the logic to future instances ofsimilar situations and I'm not following your logic. I'm not sure we can use the word 'may' as adetermining factor since Stark Fury and Blackfish's Resolve both use the word'may' and you're saying they're both mandatory whereas other cards/orders usethe word 'may' and they're voluntary effects. Honestly though, I'm not looking to get into a debate about the words orhow the game designers chose to handle this. I just want to know if there's aneasy rule I can follow (not sure there is) to know what a voluntary effect isand what isn't. If there isn't an easyrule, I guess it's just a case by case basis. Another person suggested that voluntary effects have bold triggerswhereas mandatory effects don't, but that doesn't apply to 'Bravery in the Faceof Death'.

    I also don't understand the logic behind Stark Fury rulingas being mandatory. How is utilizing anattack 'every time' any that different from having a tactics card with theappopriate trigger or an order with the appropriate trigger and deciding 'everytime' if you want to use it? Stark Furyis a unit ability that applies when the unit is alive and attacks (its'trigger). An order or tactics cardapplies when you have an order or a tactics card that applies when you possessit and the trigger is met.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by crimeanmech View Post
    I appreciate the response, and it very well may be correctbut I'm interested in being able to apply the logic to future instances ofsimilar situations and I'm not following your logic. I'm not sure we can use the word 'may' as adetermining factor since Stark Fury and Blackfish's Resolve both use the word'may' and you're saying they're both mandatory whereas other cards/orders usethe word 'may' and they're voluntary effects. Honestly though, I'm not looking to get into a debate about the words orhow the game designers chose to handle this. I just want to know if there's aneasy rule I can follow (not sure there is) to know what a voluntary effect isand what isn't. If there isn't an easyrule, I guess it's just a case by case basis. Another person suggested that voluntary effects have bold triggerswhereas mandatory effects don't, but that doesn't apply to 'Bravery in the Faceof Death'.

    I also don't understand the logic behind Stark Fury rulingas being mandatory. How is utilizing anattack 'every time' any that different from having a tactics card with theappopriate trigger or an order with the appropriate trigger and deciding 'everytime' if you want to use it? Stark Furyis a unit ability that applies when the unit is alive and attacks (its'trigger). An order or tactics cardapplies when you have an order or a tactics card that applies when you possessit and the trigger is met.
    This is the text from the FAQ regarding Stark Fury and why it functions like it does:

    STARK SWORN SWORDS

    Q: Can I use Stark Fury in combination with other Abilities and/orTactics Cards that trigger before Attack dice are rolled, or does it fallunder using multiple voluntary effects?

    A: Yes. Stark Fury may be used in this case. While choosing to gain thebonuses in exchange for taking damage is optional, the choice must always bemade each time the unit attacks, making it a mandatory effect.

    The logic, as presented, is that Weapon Abilities are always active- they are not optional. In the rulebook it uses Sundering as an example- you cannot voluntarily ever choose NOT to use Sundering. Stark Fury's weapon effect is when it's used you can opt to suffer damage to gain a benefit. This effect is always active, just like Sundering would be. The difference is in this case the actual effect is giving you the option of it 1. doing nothing 2. gaining X in exchange for Y.

  5. #5

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    But Blackfish's Resolve is not a weapon ability so how we can distinguish it as being mandatory given that it also says 'may'?

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by crimeanmech View Post
    But Blackfish's Resolve is not a weapon ability so how we can distinguish it as being mandatory given that it also says 'may'?
    It mandatorily triggers. When it does so you do not have to restore a wound. The reason you do not have to is because it says you “may” do so. Whether you do or do not restore a wound, it still triggers. You do not have the option of stopping it from triggering.

    Analogy: You catch an ice cold beer tossed your way from a buddy that says, “if you catch it you may drink it but you MUST at least try to catch it.” Because you must try (i.e., you play the game of catch which has the rule that you must try) you do so (er, take your chances/roll the dice, LOL). Whether you do or you don’t drink it once caught, the option to drink it still mandatorily triggered when you caught it.

    T :-P W
    Last edited by TheGrinningWolf; 11-28-2018 at 01:04 AM.
    To the Iron Throne!

    T W

  7. #7

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    I promise I'm not trying to be dense, but I'm still struggling to understand. I really think the verbiage should be consistent or there should be a clear indication through the use of some type of keyword or icon when something is mandatory opposed to when it's voluntary to prevent this type of confusion. I guess what I'm supposed to gather from the Stark Fury ruling is that abilities tied to attacks are always mandatory?

    As for an attachment's ability (in this case Brynden Tully - The Blackfish), what/why are you stating the indicator that the effect is mandatory? You state it as fact but didn't say why. Are you suggesting the words 'Each time' is the tip-off? This does contrast with tactics cards like 'Refuse to Yield', which state 'When a' instead of 'Each time' in regards to passing morale tests.

  8. #8

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    easy: if it has a printed trigger in bold, you can only have 1

  9. #9

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    JeppeP,

    As I stated earlier in the thread, unfortunately that doesn't always hold true as Eddard's NCU card 'Bravery in the face of Death' does not have a bold trigger and it's a voluntary effect.

  10. #10

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    Where have you learned that 'Bravery in the face of Death' is voluntary?


    I consider Eddard's 'Bravery in the face of Death' as mandatory effect, as it says "When a friendy unit passes a Morale Test or succesfully Charges..". So it is just as identical as Stark Fury, it is triggering every time your Unit passes morale or Charges, and the decision after this mandatory trigger is then optional: do you spent a token to heal or not.

    Considering Stark Fury ruling, there is no other way to rule 'Bravery in the face of Death' for consistency.
    Only difference are the tokens, but it has been said elsewhere in this forum (or was it even in the FAQ?) that the order tokens as counters are just counters, not orders. (It is just an ability with maximum amount of uses per game).

  11. #11

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    Like my friend above says, it is mandatory.
    Until FAQed differently please use this reasoning: 1 Bold trigger at the same time, If it doesn't have a BOLD trigger-> combo away as you like

  12. #12

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    If you read Alliser Thorne's and Grinningwolf's replies above, they both think Eddard's 'Bravery in the face of death' is voluntary hence the confusion I have as I can't seem to rely upon any rule to determine if an effect is mandatory or voluntary.

    So essentially we have two people in this thread that think Eddard's ability is mandatory and two that think it's voluntary and no clear determining factor to determine the type of effect.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by crimeanmech View Post
    If you read Alliser Thorne's and Grinningwolf's replies above, they both think Eddard's 'Bravery in the face of death' is voluntary hence the confusion I have as I can't seem to rely upon any rule to determine if an effect is mandatory or voluntary.

    So essentially we have two people in this thread that think Eddard's ability is mandatory and two that think it's voluntary and no clear determining factor to determine the type of effect.
    I agree with this, the deginition of "voluntary" and "mandatory" effects is a bit unclear in this game currently, as this many differing interpretations rise from card to card.

  14. #14

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    Hi I also find itvery easy to miss the detail between the 2 meanings for triggering effectsespecially during the heat of a gamel and I know things may have been playedwhen actually they should have been restricted due to illegal stacking ofeffects.
    I wish they had added a symbol against each effect to indicate if its mandatoryor voluntary, would have made it much easier and slicker especially duringgameplay.

    I hate to find have missed things or made errors post games.
    Last edited by Pikeman1; 12-12-2018 at 03:54 AM.

  15. #15

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    Blackfish's Resolve is an optional effect: It uses the word may.

    Eddar's Bravery in the Face of Death, also optional: Uses the word may.

    These effects you may chose to utilize, but are not required to.


    Note:: I am aware of the "Stark Fury" FAQ ruling regarding it being a Mandatory Trigger (despite being another "may" example). This will be evaluated and possibly re-addressed in upcoming FAQ updates.
    Designer and Senior Developer
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Michael Shinall View Post
    Blackfish's Resolve is an optional effect: It uses the word may.

    Eddar's Bravery in the Face of Death, also optional: Uses the word may.

    These effects you may chose to utilize, but are not required to.


    Note:: I am aware of the "Stark Fury" FAQ ruling regarding it being a Mandatory Trigger (despite being another "may" example). This will be evaluated and possibly re-addressed in upcoming FAQ updates.
    Thanks Michael. Some clarification or tool to differentiate between these effects going forward would be much appreciated!

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