When does "Hidden Traps" trigger?
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Thread: When does "Hidden Traps" trigger?

  1. #1

    Default When does "Hidden Traps" trigger?

    When does the Order "Hidden Traps" trigger?
    When an unit that is in 12" activates and then moves or even when a unit enters/crosses in 12" of an unit of trappers?

  2. #2

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    The order says “When an unengaged enemy within long range moves...”

    I would interpret that as they need to be within long range at the start of the movement in order to trip the trigger of the wording.
    Last edited by AlxRaven; 01-29-2019 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Auto-correct issues

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlxRaven View Post
    The order says “When an unengaged enemy within long range moves...”

    I would interpret that as they need to be within long range at the start of the movement in order to trip the trigger of the wording.

    Same. If you move INTO Long Range then you're not meeting the timing-criteria for the trigger, you're just completing an action.

  4. #4

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    When exactly would you announce the use of hidden traps? When the target activates? No. When the target declares action? No. Actions that could involve movement dont have to involve movement. So you declare when the target is physically moved. Why is this different from moving into long range instead of beginning in it? I agree that the placement of the word "moves" at the end of the trigger instead of before "within long range" does make it seem the target must begin in long range. Just playing devils advocate
    Last edited by TheRedGod; 01-30-2019 at 07:23 AM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRedGod View Post
    When exactly would you announce the use of hidden traps? When the target activates? No. When the target declares action? No. Actions that could involve movement dont have to involve movement. So you declare when the target is physically moved. Why is this different from moving into long range instead of beginning in it? I agree that the placement of the word "moves" at the end of the trigger instead of before "within long range" does make it seem the target must begin in long range. Just playing devils advocate
    I'll play Devil's Advocate on your Devil's Advocate.

    If you make the argument that Traps can trigger once a unit moves into long range. Then you can imagine a scenario where a unit that wishes to march forward is 13 inches from one trapper unit, 14 from another and 15 from yet another. During his march forward he will trigger the first trap, then trigger the next unit (as it's now a different trigger) and then continue forward yet again...

    This is all just messy. I'd rather think that to move is triggered at the point that the move is initiated.

  6. #6

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    The whole timing and declaration of it is a bit janky right now. In a recent game, I declared my intention to use Hidden Traps so my opponent decided to not complete a surge forth movement (manuever) and instead decided only to pivot. Upon further analysis of the rules it appears that even a pivot should count as a 'move' and thus trigger the order assuming the unit was either unengaged (or in this case became unengaged) and was within 12" of the Trappers.

  7. #7

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    You are correct. A Pivot is a type of move. It can sometimes be in conjunction with other types of moves, so it doesn't count.

    Right now, as I read it, Pivot doesn't count as a separate move for these two actions. The pivot before a Maneuver doesn't count as it is part of the Maneuver. The pivot before a Charge because it is part of the charge. However, the pivot after a Maneuver (or March) is a separate move because the rules read:

    "Once this move is completed, the unit maythen be pivoted to face any direction." The emphasis is on "move is completed" which implies that the two are separate (until Errata changes this).

    Furthermore, don't declare until after your opponent does the action, so that way there is no dispute. I always say fly-casual, but if someone is wanting a more competitive experience, then I am willing to give it to them.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by alekshewitt View Post
    You are correct. A Pivot is a type of move. It can sometimes be in conjunction with other types of moves, so it doesn't count.

    Right now, as I read it, Pivot doesn't count as a separate move for these two actions. The pivot before a Maneuver doesn't count as it is part of the Maneuver. The pivot before a Charge because it is part of the charge. However, the pivot after a Maneuver (or March) is a separate move because the rules read:

    "Once this move is completed, the unit maythen be pivoted to face any direction." The emphasis is on "move is completed" which implies that the two are separate (until Errata changes this).

    Furthermore, don't declare until after your opponent does the action, so that way there is no dispute. I always say fly-casual, but if someone is wanting a more competitive experience, then I am willing to give it to them.
    The pivots incorporated in the maneuver or march or charge or retreat for that matter, before or after are all part of the related move.

    If you pivot during "surge forth" and opt not to translate horizontally on the field, you still moved.

    If you pivot after the horizontal translation of any activation movement, it does NOT count as a separate trigger.

  9. #9

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    Can you cite the rules that say that the pivot after a maneuver or charge is part of the same move. The FAQ says that all steps of a Charge are treated as a single move. Nothing about all steps of a Maneuver or March. In fact, the RAW say that the move ends, then you pivot. This as written implies two separate moves. Until FAQ or Errata, that is how we are ruling it. Unless I am missing something in the Rulebook 1.2.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by alekshewitt View Post
    Can you cite the rules that say that the pivot after a maneuver or charge is part of the same move. The FAQ says that all steps of a Charge are treated as a single move. Nothing about all steps of a Maneuver or March. In fact, the RAW say that the move ends, then you pivot. This as written implies two separate moves. Until FAQ or Errata, that is how we are ruling it. Unless I am missing something in the Rulebook 1.2.
    This is the actual quote from the rule book:

    When a Combat Unit performs a Maneuver action, it may first
    be pivoted to face any direction. You may then move it directly
    forward up to its Speed Stat. Once this move is completed, the unit
    may then again be pivoted
    to face any direction.


    I understand your RAW (rules as written) logic. The last pivot is happening outside of a thing called 'this move'. Thus, a 'This move" must end before you can pivot. And pivot alone is ruled as a move.

    To me word pair "this move" is pointing to the "move directly forward" -physical move happening in Maneuver, and not to the whole full abstract rule concept of move (or should I use capital letter; "Move"?). But it definitely can be interpreted other way also, and I cannot know the RAI.


    Same english word "move" is both a physical/mechanical real-life action, and in this game an abtract rule definition which can consist of multiple physical/mecanical real-life "moves". Which "move" (real or abstract) is meant in rules and abilities each time when word "move" is used?


    What is a "move" anyway?
    From Physics point of view it is most of the times clear, but I might not have high enough education in the field of Philosophy to answer that question fully
    Last edited by Fronx; 02-01-2019 at 09:03 AM.

  11. #11

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    I am thinking that the abstract move is an Action. I think capitalization is important here. If move were capitalized, I would consider it more abstract. Like a roundhouse kick is a karate "Move". It is an action that flows.

    The other thing I would point out is that the Trap Order reads as follows:

    "When an unengaged enemy within Long Range moves:"

    It doesn't say when an unengaged enemy within Long Range does a move. The "a" in "a move" makes it abstract. Move is physical.

    Just my two cents until either an FAQ corrects me.

  12. #12

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    1. Units must begin the move within Long Range to trigger Hidden Traps.

    2. Unless a pivot is done on its own (such as being allowed from Surge Forth) it is incorporated into whatever other move it is part of- it is not a separate instance of moving.
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  13. #13

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    Thanks for the clarification... and destroying my dreams of a 10 Trapper List.

  14. #14

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    Am I correct in believing, however, that a cavalry unit or direwolf’s free maneuver at start of activation is a separate “movement”? It could then be hit twice by traps during it’s activation... right? Once when it starts its free maneuver, and then again when it moves as its activation? Presuming it can be targeted by two different trappers, of course.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShawnT View Post
    Am I correct in believing, however, that a cavalry unit or direwolf’s free maneuver at start of activation is a separate “movement”? It could then be hit twice by traps during it’s activation... right? Once when it starts its free maneuver, and then again when it moves as its activation? Presuming it can be targeted by two different trappers, of course.
    These are two separate actions, they are not the same instance of moving, meaning yes, Cavalry can potentially trigger two instances of traps per activation.

  16. #16

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    Just remember that it only triggers if the movement starts within range of the trapper issuing the order. And that you can only use that order once per round.

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