Theon and the Nights Watch card "Take the Black"
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Thread: Theon and the Nights Watch card "Take the Black"

  1. #1

    Default Theon and the Nights Watch card "Take the Black"

    Good morning all. I was surfing the forums but couldn't find the answer here so I'm hoping to get some clarification.

    My brother and I were playing a game of Lannisters (me) vs Nights Watch (him). He attacked my unit with Ramsey and Theon in it. The unit was left on 1 wound when all was said and done. Only Ramsey was left standing. On his next turn he finished off the unit and wanted to use the card "Take the Black". He told me that he wanted to target the Theon attachment. A rules discussion ensued.

    Can he take a figure that was purchased as part of the unit but that had died in a previous turn or does the card "Take the Black" ONLY apply to the figures that are present in the unit when it is destroyed?

    The reason this matters is because in game modes like Clash of Kings, where you can redeploy previously destroyed units but without attachments, will you be able to target the attachment because it was originally part of the unit?

    I'm sorry for the "Rules Lawyer" nature of the question.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruztedshut View Post
    Good morning all. I was surfing the forums but couldn't find the answer here so I'm hoping to get some clarification.

    My brother and I were playing a game of Lannisters (me) vs Nights Watch (him). He attacked my unit with Ramsey and Theon in it. The unit was left on 1 wound when all was said and done. Only Ramsey was left standing. On his next turn he finished off the unit and wanted to use the card "Take the Black". He told me that he wanted to target the Theon attachment. A rules discussion ensued.

    Can he take a figure that was purchased as part of the unit but that had died in a previous turn or does the card "Take the Black" ONLY apply to the figures that are present in the unit when it is destroyed?

    The reason this matters is because in game modes like Clash of Kings, where you can redeploy previously destroyed units but without attachments, will you be able to target the attachment because it was originally part of the unit?

    I'm sorry for the "Rules Lawyer" nature of the question.
    If you read the other threads in this forum, you'll see lots of "Rules Lawyer" questions. Welcome!

    To your question, if the unit only had Ramsey left when it was destroyed, then he can only take Ramsey. Take the Black's trigger is "When an Enemy Combat Unit is Destroyed." If he'd destroyed the unit when both Ramsey and Theon were still attached, then he'd have a choice. But the unit has to be eliminated in its entirety.

    Same with the CoK situation. If you don't (or can't) play Take the Black when a unit with an attachment is destroyed, you lose your chance to grab that attachment.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by serbaelish View Post
    To your question, if the unit only had Ramsey left when it was destroyed, then he can only take Ramsey. Take the Black's trigger is "When an Enemy Combat Unit is Destroyed." If he'd destroyed the unit when both Ramsey and Theon were still attached, then he'd have a choice. But the unit has to be eliminated in its entirety.
    The problem with that is, that a unit that is destroyed doesn't contain any models. (a unit is destroyed after the last model was removed)

  4. #4

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    Can't see anything to indicate that you can only take attachments that were removed that combat phase.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by hithero View Post
    Can't see anything to indicate that you can only take attachments that were removed that combat phase.
    One such indication is at least the FAQ'd fact, that if you lose an attachment on an Unit (presume Unit has 2 attachments), then heal that same Unit, you only get regular model back, not the lost attachment.

    Inherited from that, one would claim, that if you could claim already dead attachment with Take The Black, you could also heal already dead Attachment back with a heal.
    But you cannot, as per FAQ.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fronx View Post
    One such indication is at least the FAQ'd fact, that if you lose an attachment on an Unit (presume Unit has 2 attachments), then heal that same Unit, you only get regular model back, not the lost attachment.

    Inherited from that, one would claim, that if you could claim already dead attachment with Take The Black, you could also heal already dead Attachment back with a heal.
    But you cannot, as per FAQ.
    Yes, once an attachment is "off the board," they're gone. Not only that, but you can't target a unit or attachment that isn't currently in play.

    So once Theon was killed, he could no longer be targeted by Take the Black.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failix View Post
    The problem with that is, that a unit that is destroyed doesn't contain any models. (a unit is destroyed after the last model was removed)
    At the risk of mixing game systems, I tend to see tactics cards in much the same way as Interrupts in M:tG (are there still Interrupts? Haven't played in a while.) At the time you play the card, action stops until it resolves.

    So, Take the Black resolves at the point after a unit is destroyed, but before the models are taken out of play.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  8. #8

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    The destroyed step is after the model remove step. ("If the last model is removed from a unit, the unit is destroyed and removed from the battlefield")
    Remove models -> Destroy Unit -> (Play card ->) remove tray from battlefield.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Failix View Post
    The destroyed step is after the model remove step. ("If the last model is removed from a unit, the unit is destroyed and removed from the battlefield")
    Remove models -> Destroy Unit -> (Play card ->) remove tray from battlefield.
    Good point. But who you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?

    I think this is a "Rules as Written" / "Rules as Intended" conflict. By the book, this would make Take the Black utterly useless, so I'm inclined to think that wasn't the intent.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

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