Simultaneous Actions
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Thread: Simultaneous Actions

  1. #1

    Default Simultaneous Actions

    Summary from a discussion in the FB-Group:

    The most argue, that everything that includes a "may" in its description is a voluntary effect. Stark Fury, Hounds Fury are exceptions because they are tight to a weapon ability. The same counts for the free cavalry movement, because it is an innate ability (this hasn´t been discussed very deeply).

    The others argue, that the word "trigger" is only mentioned, regarding tactic-cards and orders in the rules. The triggers here are clearly to identify, because they are written in bold and this indicates that a "Trigger" is a specific mechanic and for simultaneous actions only those specific triggers have to be reflected.
    I think almost all agree that the explanation in the FAQs, that Stark Fury is mandatory, because the decision has always to be made is confusing (because that´s somehow true for every other trigger (regardless how a Trigger is interpreted) too.
    "Hodor!!!" or "Blackfish´s resolve" have been mentioned and discussed and on side interpreted them as being affected by the rues for simultaneous actions others not.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
    Summary from a discussion in the FB-Group:

    The most argue, that everything that includes a "may" in its description is a voluntary effect. Stark Fury, Hounds Fury are exceptions because they are tight to a weapon ability. The same counts for the free cavalry movement, because it is an innate ability (this hasn´t been discussed very deeply).
    Stark Fury is an exception because the FAQ says it is an exception, there is no other reason. Trying to apply this rule to ANYTHING else does not work. It works this way because the FAQ says it works this way. It does not say to apply this to any other Ability, Effect, or situation. Only Stark Fury.

    Also saying "the same counts for cavalry movement because it is an innate ability" has no backing by the rules at all. Nothing in the rule-text says they are exempt from the Simultaneous Actions rule, only that they cannot be cancelled. Anyone who is saying otherwise is adding rules that do not exist.

    Triggers likewise have NOTHING to do with Simultaneous Actions. "Triggers" is not a rule or even a game term, it's used in the context by its dictionary definition- The rules only mention that a player can only respond with 1 Voluntary effect effect off the same "trigger" or "event". Those words are interchangeable here.

    I'm not sure what is causing so much confusion as to what is or isn't a Voluntary Effect. If it's something you're actively having to choose to utilize or not, then it's, by definition, voluntary. Are you choosing to play a Tactics Card? Yes. It's Voluntary. Are you choosing to use an Order? Yes. It's Voluntary. Cavalry states "At the start of its activation, this unit may make a free Maneuver". Are you choosing to make the Maneuver? Yes. It's Voluntary.

    Conversely. Sundering: "Defenders suffer -1 to Defense Save rolls". No choice in this, and it is always active. Mandatory.

    I personally do not agree with the Stark Fury ruling because, by the actual way it's worded, it is a Voluntary Effect. The ONLY reason it is Mandatory is because the FAQ rules it as such, but even then, the reasoning given (personal opinion) is flawed. Regardless, it is a single ruling on a single Ability and cannot be blanket applied to anything else.

  3. #3

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    - Yes, the explanation with the cavalry movement is clearly not backed ... but it´s something that feels strange (that it can be canceled out by other effects. a discussion was about ride-by-attack, which can seen as simultaneous to the trigger of the free movement and then would make this card really hard to use - you have to be almost in base-contact then).

    - It is also not consistent, that "Hounds Fury" hasn´t been FAQed, it is basically the same as Stark Fury. Following your argumentation (where Stark Fury is only mandatory because it´s stated as that in the FAQ without any further logical reason) Hounds Fury would be still voluntary.

    - What confuses many - and me especially, as some-kind-of-designer - why are triggers on orders and tactic-cards printed in bold and for regular abilities not (and all examples in the rule-book only referring to those two kind of effects).

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    Stark Fury is an exception because the FAQ says it is an exception, there is no other reason. Trying to apply this rule to ANYTHING else does not work. It works this way because the FAQ says it works this way. It does not say to apply this to any other Ability, Effect, or situation. Only Stark Fury.
    Not really true.

    STARK SWORN SWORDSQ: Can I use Stark Fury in combination with other Abilities and/orTactics Cards that trigger before Attack dice are rolled, or does it fallunder using multiple voluntary effects?A: Yes. Stark Fury may be used in this case. While choosing to gain thebonuses in exchange for taking damage is optional, the choice must always bemade each time the unit attacks, making it a mandatory effect.

    The justification is that it is a Mandatory effect, the choice to use it must be made every time they attack.
    As such, all other mandatory effects are going to opperate the exact same.

    Why, because the reason Starks Fury is stackable is because its mandatory, not "Because the FAQ says so"

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daboarder View Post
    Not really true.

    STARK SWORN SWORDSQ: Can I use Stark Fury in combination with other Abilities and/orTactics Cards that trigger before Attack dice are rolled, or does it fallunder using multiple voluntary effects?A: Yes. Stark Fury may be used in this case. While choosing to gain thebonuses in exchange for taking damage is optional, the choice must always bemade each time the unit attacks, making it a mandatory effect.

    The justification is that it is a Mandatory effect, the choice to use it must be made every time they attack.
    As such, all other mandatory effects are going to opperate the exact same.

    Why, because the reason Starks Fury is stackable is because its mandatory, not "Because the FAQ says so"
    You are correct, that that is how it shows.

    I do agree Alliser, as I have seen various comments from Michael Shinall here on Forum, Facebook and even in Discord, that make what Alliser says correct.

    But, this knowledge is not visible anywhere. It should not be requirement for people to spend (a lot of time) various social media channels of the game just to figure out how the rule goes.

    So RAW conclusion (combining Rule Book, Errata and FAQ) is, that it is very unclear when an ability is voluntary and when mandatory, mostly due to how Stark Fury is written to FAQ, and not to Errata. From FAQ answers one should be able to extrapolate. From Errata, it would be clear that it is exception, not an aswer to frequently asked question (where from people start to extrapolate (as it is logical to extrapolate from FAQ) how other similar abilities work on voluntary / mandatory dial).

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    Also saying "the same counts for cavalry movement because it is an innate ability" has no backing by the rules at all. Nothing in the rule-text says they are exempt from the Simultaneous Actions rule, only that they cannot be cancelled. Anyone who is saying otherwise is adding rules that do not exist.
    So this means that when a Cavalry/Solo Unit activates the player cannot use the Free Manoeuvre as well as playing a Tactics Card that triggers on "When a friendly Unit Activates..." such as this High Sparrow card? It's one or the other?

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  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean Rothwell View Post
    So this means that when a Cavalry/Solo Unit activates the player cannot use the Free Manoeuvre as well as playing a Tactics Card that triggers on "When a friendly Unit Activates..." such as this High Sparrow card? It's one or the other?

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    This would be the current RAW interpretation: one or the other.

  8. #8

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    Actually, it’s not that easy. As the rules are written now you can interpret them as abilities “are always active on a unit and are not optional” (p. 10, in other words mandatory - my interpretation) except those that have a trigger, which is identified by a bold sentence on the cards (p. 23) . The rules are not entirely clear regarding what’s a voluntary effect, the previous quoted sentence starts with “Unless specifically noted otherwise” (p. 10) but how something is “specifically noted” isn’t stated. So you can argue that a trigger on a card or order is specifically noting us that the ability is not mandatory but a voluntary effect.


    Based on that you can interpret the sentence “a player may only ever activate 1 voluntary effect based on that trigger” as you can only activate 1 card or order with the same trigger although you can use other abilities which triggers at the same time because they are mandatory abilities (although they may seem as voluntary because you may use them).


  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxel View Post
    Based on that you can interpret the sentence “a player may only ever activate 1 voluntary effect based on that trigger” as you can only activate 1 card or order with the same trigger although you can use other abilities which triggers at the same time because they are mandatory abilities (although they may seem as voluntary because you may use them).
    That's exactly the reasoning behind Stark Fury behind a Mandatory Ability, even though it includes the word 'may'. However, that has its own specific FAQ entry, unlike this instance.

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