Attack Resolution and Panic Tests
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Thread: Attack Resolution and Panic Tests

  1. #1

    Default Attack Resolution and Panic Tests

    For the purposes of Forced Conscription is a panic check part of the resolution of an attack or is it separate? If a unit loses models from an attack due to failed saves and then loses some due to the following panic test does Forced Conscription trigger twice?

  2. #2

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    The Panic Check is very clearly part of the attack, this is an expressly stated step in the rules.

    Forced Conscription says each time an enemy loses models from an attack or panic test. By wording, this triggers anytime either of the two conditions are met, so from a single attack action, the unit could potentially heal 2. Not that different from, say, Roose Bolton's Prey on Fear.

  3. #3

    Default

    But if the panic check is encompassed within the overall "attack" i.e. an attack is not resolved until after the panic check is completed (the rulebook doesn't say attack action, it simply says resolving an attack), aren't all models lost (including those lost from the panic check) considered to have been lost from that attack? Thus only triggering the condition once, therefore only restoring one wound?

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashamanofthebt View Post
    But if the panic check is encompassed within the overall "attack" i.e. an attack is not resolved until after the panic check is completed (the rulebook doesn't say attack action, it simply says resolving an attack), aren't all models lost (including those lost from the panic check) considered to have been lost from that attack? Thus only triggering the condition once, therefore only restoring one wound?
    Even with that logic it would trigger twice, as it says "each time an enemy loses models...". The loss of models clearly can happen twice in an attack, 1st in the Attack resolution, and 2nd time in Panic Test resolution.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fronx View Post
    Even with that logic it would trigger twice, as it says "each time an enemy loses models...". The loss of models clearly can happen twice in an attack, 1st in the Attack resolution, and 2nd time in Panic Test resolution.
    Not exactly, I was proposing that the attack resolution does not conclude until after the panic check and thus the models lost from the panic check are considered to have been lost from the attack as a whole. Therefore all the models lost in this sequence would have been lost due to an attack (which encompasses the panic check), and thus one wound is restored.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashamanofthebt View Post
    Not exactly, I was proposing that the attack resolution does not conclude until after the panic check and thus the models lost from the panic check are considered to have been lost from the attack as a whole. Therefore all the models lost in this sequence would have been lost due to an attack (which encompasses the panic check), and thus one wound is restored.
    That is not what the card says. The card says quite clearly ”each time an enemy loses models”. Then it limits the trigger more by defining that only in ”attack” and in ”panic test”.

    In your interpretation, that firstly mentioned text would be void (ignored). ”Each time an enemy loses models”. One should not ignore the texts in the cards, we must assume they are written intentionally as they are written.

  7. #7

    Default

    One should never ignore the texts in the cards I agree, and the "each time an enemy loses models" does not exist in a vacuum.

    As you said, it is "each time an enemy engaged with this unit loses models from an Attack or Panic Test, this unit may restore up to 1 Wound". An Attack, per pg. 19, involves removing models due to wounds (nowhere does it specify that this is the end of the attack or the entirety of the attack itself) and then the unit makes a panic test where it may lose more models (this is all still occurring under the umbrella of "Attack"). Only after all of these steps have been resolved is an "Attack" completed. Although there are two opportunities to "lose models" during this sequence, both of them are from the "Attack" because the panic test is part of the entire attack resolution and you may only restore 1 Wound despite the amount of models removed.

    Maybe I'm reading too far into this and it is as simple as you suggest (which is how I understood it when I first saw the card) but the description of an "Attack" on pg. 19 is what has me confused. If the rules said "after a unit is attacked and suffers wounds, they then must make a panic test" then I would agree with you 100%. Its written, however, that the panic test is encompassed within and is a part of the overarching attack therefore an attack has not occurred until after the panic test has been completed. To me this suggests that the trigger is only met once and therefore can only restore 1 wound. I hope I'm conveying exactly where my contention and confusion is stemming from, but you seem to perseverate on the first part of the text whereas I think the issue is more with how that works in conjunction with the trigger and effect.

  8. #8

    Default

    When a defending unit (which is engaged with a Recruiter containing unit) loses models after failing defensive dice, would you consider those models lost due to an attack (Even though, granted, said attack isn't complete yet)? Yes. Therefore the trigger is met at that point.

    Subsequently, the unit then makes a panic check. Possibly removing more models. You may refer to those models being removed due to the panic, or you may say that it's still due to the overall attack. Either way, it is still a second, distinct occurrence of models being removed from an Attack or Panic, therefore another trigger.

    To say that they are not distinct, is to say that you are failing a certain number of defensive saves, keeping that number in mind. Then you are moving onto the panic test, potentially failing that and adding that number to the previous and only then removing the sum total of all models required. Which is not how things are done.

    In fact, abilities that grant distinctly separate attacks within an attack action (should they ever exist, Bastard Girls are the closest right now) would also cause two distinct triggers.

  9. #9

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelraek View Post
    When a defending unit (which is engaged with a Recruiter containing unit) loses models after failing defensive dice, would you consider those models lost due to an attack (Even though, granted, said attack isn't complete yet)? Yes. Therefore the trigger is met at that point.

    Subsequently, the unit then makes a panic check. Possibly removing more models. You may refer to those models being removed due to the panic, or you may say that it's still due to the overall attack. Either way, it is still a second, distinct occurrence of models being removed from an Attack or Panic, therefore another trigger.

    To say that they are not distinct, is to say that you are failing a certain number of defensive saves, keeping that number in mind. Then you are moving onto the panic test, potentially failing that and adding that number to the previous and only then removing the sum total of all models required. Which is not how things are done.

    In fact, abilities that grant distinctly separate attacks within an attack action (should they ever exist, Bastard Girls are the closest right now) would also cause two distinct triggers.
    Thanks for thorough reply and explanation, this I can get behind.

  11. #11

    Default

    This Ability's effect (actually, all effects) happen each time the trigger is met. There are two triggers for this Ability: When a unit loses models from an Attack, or when it loses models from a Panic Test. Both of these can occur during an Attack Action, meaning Forced Conscription can trigger up to two times.

    Also, just as a general note, remember that the Ability will trigger any time an engaged enemy loses models from either of these triggers. Nothing on the card says it has to be caused by the unit with the Ability.
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