Complex situation - Last Stand vs last units on the table.
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Thread: Complex situation - Last Stand vs last units on the table.

  1. #1

    Default Complex situation - Last Stand vs last units on the table.

    Hi,

    Yesterday a situation occurred, where player A (Lannisters) charged with his last unit on the table against player B's (Stark) last unit on the table.

    The charge from the Lannister player destroyed the stark player's last unit which triggered the card Last Stand which states that, the unit unit makes a melee attack before it is removed from the table.

    The attack from Last Stand destroyed the Lannister's Last unit.

    What happens at this point?

    Are both unit removed simultaneously and therefore you use VPs as tie-breaker?

    Is the Lannister's unit removed first and therefore the stark player claims victory?

    An official answer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
    Last edited by TrePalle; 06-11-2019 at 06:36 AM.
    What is dead may never die, but rises again Harder and Stronger

  2. #2

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    Currently I think Stark would win, here are the wordings associated....

    Rulebook Page 28
    • If a player ever has no Combat Units remaining on the table,they are eliminated. In a 2-player game, this means theiropponent immediately wins, regardless of total Victory Points.

    Last Stand Tactic Card


    Before the Stark unit is removed, thus not triggering the End of Game condition, Last Stand would destroy the Lannister unit and remove it from the field, thus triggering the end of game conditions in favor of House Stark. Could be wrong though. Cheers

  3. #3

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    Agree.

    Competition wise it should be ruled a Stark Victory.

    For fun sake and narrative play... Great story and as close to a tie as anyone can get.

  4. #4

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    Thanks guys.
    What is dead may never die, but rises again Harder and Stronger

  5. #5

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    That card really feels like it should have been a "when a friendly unit would be destroyed" instead of "when a friendly unit is destroyed" trigger, since it tell you to do something before it is removed.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad3theimpaler View Post
    That card really feels like it should have been a "when a friendly unit would be destroyed" instead of "when a friendly unit is destroyed" trigger, since it tell you to do something before it is removed.
    Completely agree. Like in the case of Jon Snow's card "It shall not end until my death..." Moreover, it would allow the unit to take advantage of any attachment they would have as it was intentionally stated by Micheal Shinall in this post http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...ards-questions
    What is dead may never die, but rises again Harder and Stronger

  7. #7

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    By strictest rules, the game ends when you have no more combat units on the table, unlike other conditions which check at the end of the round, so the game would end right then and there.

    Thematically though, I like the Last Stand scenario, but again, by the written rules, it doesn't play out that way.

  8. #8

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    Alliser's comment is correct here. As soon as a player has no Combat Units remaining on the table, the game immediately ends in Victory for their opponent. So while, thematically, the "dual-kill" ending is better, if we're dealing in a tournament structure, Victory would go to the Lannister player.
    Designer and Senior Developer
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  9. #9

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    Thanks for your reply.
    What is dead may never die, but rises again Harder and Stronger

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Michael Shinall View Post
    Alliser's comment is correct here. As soon as a player has no Combat Units remaining on the table, the game immediately ends in Victory for their opponent. So while, thematically, the "dual-kill" ending is better, if we're dealing in a tournament structure, Victory would go to the Lannister player.
    Wait, Lannister player? If it ends as soon as a player has no units left, wouldn't that mean the victory goes to the Stark player as their unit wiped out the last Lannister unit before being removed?

  11. #11

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    From what i get of it, the Stark card triggers when a unit "is" destroyed. It means the unit is no longer valid for its presence on the table by then. Basically the Stark player won't have an opportunity to play the card as one victory condition is met.

  12. #12

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    But as Michael just said and the rules state the condition is not met. The condition for victory is to have no enemy combat units on the table, but as the card happens before they are "removed" they are still on the table. So why would it be a Lannister victory?

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by TarkL View Post
    But as Michael just said and the rules state the condition is not met. The condition for victory is to have no enemy combat units on the table, but as the card happens before they are "removed" they are still on the table. So why would it be a Lannister victory?
    I assume it is because when a unit is "destroyed" it cease to count as being "on the table" for the victory condition. The stark card comes in with a "wait don't remove the models yet!" but it's too late by then in this special case as it triggers after it "is destroyed". I am not certain why the card states that you don't remove the models yet, but i would point toward the need to have all parameters for the attack (unit remaining rank(s), unit and attachment abilities, NCU influence, flank/rear bonus, conditions, etc).

    To put things in perspective, the Night's Watch have a similar card with a distinctive wording difference: Jon Snow's "It shall not end until my death" triggers when a friendly combat unit "would" be destroyed. That card could be played in the above scenario because it takes place before the unit is destroyed.

  14. #14

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    Yea I dont quite get it. The Stark unit makes the attack before being removed.... So if the Lannister player is destroyed during the attack the Stark unit would still be on the table while the Lannister unit is removed right? When you have no units left you immediately lose....

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