Overrun Tactics Card and Disordered Charges
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Thread: Overrun Tactics Card and Disordered Charges

  1. #1

    Default Overrun Tactics Card and Disordered Charges

    Forgive me if this has been dealt with before, but I have a question on timing. This has cropped up a few times in play locally, and once on a podcast (Benjamin Lin's B+P Battle Reports).

    The situation is this:

    1) Attacking Player declares a charge, but rolls a '1' (or '2' on a corpse pile) for distance. The charge is Disordered (page 19, Rulebook), but it is enough distance to make contact. This means that "...the Attacker may not play tactics cards for the remainder of the unit's action." This could also happen a few other ways - Robb Stark's ability, Hodor's ability, etc.

    2) For various reasons, the Attacker does enough damage to destroy the Defending Unit. The unit is destroyed either during the 'Defender Suffers Wounds' or the 'Defender Makes Panic Test' step; both of these are still within the Attack Action.

    3) The Attacking player attempts to use the Overrun tactics card. The trigger says 'When a Friendly Unit Destroys an Enemy'.

    The trigger is clearly inside the action, which seems to indicate that the card can't be played. However, it is replacing an effect that happens outside of the Attack action, when the limitation might be lifted. Which is correct? Can the Attacking Unit use Overrun on a turn in which they made a Disordered Charge?

    Tormund's Overrun order and Gregor Mounted Behemoth's Overrun order seem to be immune to this - I found nothing in the Rulebook where it says Orders cannot be used during a Disordered Charge (which seems counter-intuitive).

  2. #2

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    Tough one.

    My ruling would be, that you can play, as the action is over (the rule is you cannot play cards for the rest of the action).
    It has been said elsewhere by Michael related to other question, that Overrun is not an charge insde an attack, but the originalattack is already over. This was related to order of things when multiple triggers are happening when unit gets destroyed.

    Thus, the action is over when surge forth would happen, thus you can again play cards.

  3. #3

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    The Action would be completed upon full resolution of the attack. This is the window that Disorderly Charge prevents cards from being played during.

    In this scenario, Overrun would be valid to play, as the Action has been completed (as can any cards that might trigger, say, "at the end of a unit's activation"- this is the reason for the specific wording and specific timing of how long Disorderly Charge works, otherwise it would be "until the end of the turn").

    As just going to note, as has been said previously, Surge Forth is not, in any way part of "resolving the attack". It is an effect that triggers as a result of the Action- only the steps under "Resolving an Attack" are, well, the Attack.
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  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMON Michael Shinall View Post
    The Action would be completed upon full resolution of the attack. This is the window that Disorderly Charge prevents cards from being played during.

    In this scenario, Overrun would be valid to play, as the Action has been completed (as can any cards that might trigger, say, "at the end of a unit's activation"- this is the reason for the specific wording and specific timing of how long Disorderly Charge works, otherwise it would be "until the end of the turn").

    As just going to note, as has been said previously, Surge Forth is not, in any way part of "resolving the attack". It is an effect that triggers as a result of the Action- only the steps under "Resolving an Attack" are, well, the Attack.
    Bumping this up, as this old post has gotten lot of attention. (Also my above thinking is wrong in my opinon). By all and everything else said, current understanding of rules is, that "Unit destruction [via Attack]" and "After Attack" are separate triggers.

    Thus Overrun could not be played in above scenario, inside Attack, as it's tirgger is Unit destruction, which is inside Attack (and thus still suffering from disorderly charge).

    But above official response is now contradicting that.

  5. #5

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    Its obvious that playing this card is allowed to play.
    The rulebook says (page20):
    Attack Completed: Once all these steps have been performed, the attack will be completed. At this point any Abilities/effects that trigger “After a unit is attacked” can be played. Once this is done, in the case of a Melee Attack, the attacker may also be able to Surge Forth (see below).
    Therefore the Action "attack" is over and therefore the disorder charge. Surgeforge would came after the " unit is distroyed" is resolved. So its allow cards!

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rossi1985 View Post
    Its obvious that playing this card is allowed to play.
    The rulebook says (page20):
    Attack Completed: Once all these steps have been performed, the attack will be completed. At this point any Abilities/effects that trigger “After a unit is attacked” can be played. Once this is done, in the case of a Melee Attack, the attacker may also be able to Surge Forth (see below).
    Therefore the Action "attack" is over and therefore the disorder charge. Surgeforge would came after the " unit is distroyed" is resolved. So its allow cards!
    overrun is played when a unit is destroyed.

    if unit is destroyed (a) shares timing with after a unit is attacked certain plays can t be made but (b)if it s in the attack resolution then overrun can t be played.
    Last edited by Bazzu; 07-18-2020 at 12:25 AM.
    Triple F.

    Fight F@k Fight

  7. #7

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    Thanks for the reply Bazzu.
    Unfortunately i disagree. The rule on page 20 sad obviously, that the attack is Action attack will be finished after/or before the trigger "after the attack trigger" is resolved to end this attack. So this stats all triggers after this are not part of action anymore

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rossi1985 View Post
    Thanks for the reply Bazzu.
    Unfortunately i disagree. The rule on page 20 sad obviously, that the attack is Action attack will be finished after/or before the trigger "after the attack trigger" is resolved to end this attack. So this stats all triggers after this are not part of action anymore
    All true, but you are not reading what others say, and what Overrun says.

    You must play Overrun at Unit destruction. You do not play Overrun after attack. Most of the effect of your Overrun happen at Surge Forth, which is After Attack, but to be able to do Overrun instead of Surge Forth, you had to play Overrun when the trigger of Overrun says it must be played.

    And trigger to play Overrun is at Unit Destruction. Not at ”after attack”or at ”Surge Forth”.

  9. #9

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    I was wondering, but now i understand what u mean.
    I thought that the trigger "unit is destroyed" is automatically the trigger "after attack is completed.
    I would still stay with the trigger sequence
    - Attack dice are rolled
    - defence dice are rolled
    - wounds are removed
    (- optionally panic test
    - wounds are removed)
    - attack is completed
    - unit is destroyed/or not
    Its not logical a attack would continue in the moment a unit is distroyed. Its not the same trigger i totally agree.
    For your point of view it states that:
    Page 7 : When the last Wound is lost from a unit, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield.
    But from my point of view:
    Page 17 in surge Forth: Once all Abilities, effects, and/or cards that trigger from the attack’s resolution (including units being destroyed) have been resolved.

    Usually a player played "Watcher on the Wall" before he plays "And now the watch has ended.
    Please correct me if im wrong
    Last edited by Rossi1985; 07-18-2020 at 08:29 AM.

  10. #10

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    The generally understood order is, that attack (which killed an Unit) cannot be over until that Unit has been destroyed and all things happening due to that destruction have been done (it is quite logical even).

    It would be a bit strange, if the destruction from attack would happen outside of that attack. (of course logic cannot be always applied into abstracted game rules).

    So Unit destruction happens still inside attack (before we are in "after attack"). Only after that Attack is over, and we are in "after attack" situation.
    "Now his watch has ended" trigger is thus before "The watcher on the wall", so that would be wrong to play them in other order.

  11. #11

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    In my opinion once a unit is destroyed the attack ends (action is completed too)

    This makes when a unit is destroyed and after an attack is completed same step/timing therefore limiting you to play one or the other.

    when i saw the overrun ruling it further made sense as the action needs to be completed when disorderly charging to be able to trigger cards
    Triple F.

    Fight F@k Fight

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