Can the scorpion have “critical blow”?
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Thread: Can the scorpion have “critical blow”?

  1. #1

    Question Can the scorpion have “critical blow”?

    The new card of Othell Yarwick give critical blow to an unit before attack dice are rolled. If I give that card to the scorpion crew and I roll 3 - 3 - 6 I make 12 hit? Each success (3+) deal 3 hit, if I roll 6 I deal 6 hit with critical blow?

  2. #2

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    Both Critical Blow and the Scorpion's effects replace what happens when you roll a 6- they wouldn't stack with each other. In this case it would actually be they both replace what happens, and you'd then choose the order of which since you control both effects.

    So what would end up happening is, if you decided to (waste) Othell's card here you could choose to either replace the 6 with the Scorpion's effect, giving you 3 Hits per 6... Then replace that effect with Critical Blow, giving you 2 Hits per 6... Or the opposite.

    Point is, don't play that card on Scorpions.

  3. #3

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    If the effects does not have the same name, u can stack them, so I think is possible to have double hit on 6...
    the “each success mean 3 hit” replace the normal atk, but u can add other effects like subdering so why not critical blow ...

  4. #4

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    Some things to note:

    Critical Blow triggers off the die result, not the hit.
    It also is worded to say that 6’s count as two hits.

    So you roll your attack with the Scorpion, while being influenced. You get a 6. That 6 now has two potential effects attached to it. It can count as 3 hits, or it can count as 2. You decide. It can NOT count as both 3 hits and 2 hits at the same time.


    It would be very different if Critical Blow was worded as +1 hit, or that each hit counts as 2 hits.

    Hope this helped clarify.
    Last edited by AlxRaven; 07-17-2019 at 03:39 PM.
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  5. #5

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    Sure, you can stack them. Neither of those effects ADD additional Hits, they both respectively say "Rolls of 6 cause 2 Hits" and "Rolls of 6 cause 3 Hits".

    Both of those are replacing the result of a 6 with something else. If they said "causes +X Hits" then sure- but that is not what they say or do.

  6. #6

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    Clear or 3 hit basic or 2 hit for the 6

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    Both Critical Blow and the Scorpion's effects replace what happens when you roll a 6- they wouldn't stack with each other. In this case it would actually be they both replace what happens, and you'd then choose the order of which since you control both effects.

    So what would end up happening is, if you decided to (waste) Othell's card here you could choose to either replace the 6 with the Scorpion's effect, giving you 3 Hits per 6... Then replace that effect with Critical Blow, giving you 2 Hits per 6... Or the opposite.

    Point is, don't play that card on Scorpions.
    The card also lets you re-roll any attack dice, so it's not entirely wasted on scorpions. Sometimes it might be worth playing just for the re-roll.

  8. #8

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    The wording is different on both effects, so they should stack. IIRC nowhere is it stated that these effects, which are based on the roll, replace the actual rolls to hit (unlike the Giant's Mighty Swing or the Scorpion's own Single shot).

    The Volley fire ability states:
    Each success deal 3 hits.

    Critical blows:
    Rolls of 6 cause 2 hits.

    So by rolling a 6, you get a success, which deals 3 hits via Volley fire. You also trigger the condition for critical blow , which cause 2 hits.

    The rules don't tell us to stop applying abilities after the first one, and both conditions are met. You can resolve them in any order.

    Is it a success? yes. apply effect.
    Is it a critical blow? yes. apply effect

    So one way of looking at this would be that under the effect of "Mighty Enhancement", a Scorpions rolling a 6 would cause 5 total hits with it.

    Could be wrong of course, just putting more food for thought
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 08-05-2019 at 10:49 PM.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakwolf View Post
    The wording is different on both effects, so they should stack. IIRC nowhere is it stated that these effects, which are based on the roll, replace the actual rolls to hit (unlike the Giant's Mighty Swing or the Scorpion's own Single shot).

    The Volley fire ability states:
    Each success deal 3 hits.

    Critical blows:
    Rolls of 6 cause 2 hits.

    So by rolling a 6, you get a success, which deals 3 hits via Volley fire. You also trigger the condition for critical blow , which cause 2 hits.

    The rules don't tell us to stop applying abilities after the first one, and both conditions are met. You can resolve them in any order.

    Is it a success? yes. apply effect.
    Is it a critical blow? yes. apply effect

    So one way of looking at this would be that under the effect of "Mighty Enhancement", a Scorpions rolling a 6 would cause 5 total hits with it.

    Could be wrong of course, just putting more food for thought
    Because as I stated above, each of these effects isn't ADDING additional Hits, it's REPLACING what happens on a Six with something else.

    The effect isn't "deals +1/2/3 additional Hits" its "Deals 2 Hits/3 Hits".

  10. #10

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    Your way of reading it could be perfectly right, but what i stated above is a valid (imho) way to read the card though, and i am not "adding" hits during the resolution.

    I am applying both effects separately (respectively 3 and 2 hits), because nothing tells me not to apply both. We likely agree that critical blow wouldn't work with Single Shot, which does replace the result of the roll (same with the giant).

  11. #11

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    With your reading, Critical Blow on a normal unit would effectively cause 3 hits, since you'd get 2 hits from Critical Blow, plus 1 for just hitting the target as per the rulebook.

  12. #12

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    You're correct on this one, but i still believe that the unit should be able to benefit from critical blow. The rulebook does state that similar effects are cumulative.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakwolf View Post
    You're correct on this one, but i still believe that the unit should be able to benefit from critical blow. The rulebook does state that similar effects are cumulative.
    If the abilities said they caused 1 additional hit/2 additional hits, that would work. But they both cause a set number of hits instead of normal hits.

    If one effect said a unit's speed value becomes 3, and another says it becomes 5, you wouldn't add them together and say the unit ends up with a speed value of 8.

    This is the same situation.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlad3theimpaler View Post
    If the abilities said they caused 1 additional hit/2 additional hits, that would work. But they both cause a set number of hits instead of normal hits.

    If one effect said a unit's speed value becomes 3, and another says it becomes 5, you wouldn't add them together and say the unit ends up with a speed value of 8.

    This is the same situation.
    No, this is not remotely the same thing. I agree that you should have to choose between Critical Blow and Volley, but that is definitely not how it is worded. Nothing in either card gives you the idea that they can't be used together. Critical Blow is based on the face showing on the dice, so when you get a '6', you are generating 2 hits. Because 6 is higher than 3, you have also generated a success, which triggers Volley - generating 3 Hits. I think the intent and the specific wording ("each success" vs "rolls of 6") are in conflict here, at least enough that this should be added to the next version of the FAQ.

  15. #15

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    I agree, at this time i can see no way to prevent the unit from applying both effects. Can't say about the intent. The Precision Enhancement tactic card from Othell Yarwyck prevents defense saves on the roll of a 6 as well...so if there's no 6 to trigger critical blow, there's no 6 to trigger that one either.

    All that said, imho, there's little wrong in this unit getting critical blows, even if it's a "super version" of it...a lance cavalry charge can already do 9 dice attacks with critical blow, sundering and re-rolls with the charge, and they add great defense, mobility and benefit from most tactic cards of their deck.

  16. #16

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    If there really is confusion about this, then this is wide-spread issue, as Critical Blow is quite common skill, and easily happens multiple times in each game.

    This means that there are people that make all times Critical Blow make 3 damage instead of 2, as they apply both "hit" and the "face value effect" off of it (or they would be illogical to not do so, but believe above logic).

    As per this very logical observation made already above:
    Quote Originally Posted by AutumnLeaves View Post
    With your reading, Critical Blow on a normal unit would effectively cause 3 hits, since you'd get 2 hits from Critical Blow, plus 1 for just hitting the target as per the rulebook.
    I personally have not seen this as issue, and read it as been stated above; the effect is "instead", not "additionally".

  17. #17

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    My only issue with this is the following extract's note from the rulebook's p24:

    Sometimes a unit will be granted an ability it already had, such as playing a Tactics card that grants Sundering onto a unit that already had Sundering. Effects and Abilities with the same name are not cumulative: a unit either has the Ability or it does not have the Ability!

    Note, however, that sometimes Abilities might grant similar effects but do not have the same name. In these cases, the effects are cumulative.

  18. #18

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    Yep, but in the case of Critical Blow the effect replaces the value, rather than adding or subtracting from it.
    If Critical Blow said
    rolls of a 6 cause 1 additional hit
    and the scorpion said
    each successful hit causes 2 additional hits
    then it would absolutely be cumulative.

    But instead they replace the value of the successful hit roll - either with 2 or 3 hits depending on the ability. You cannot replace it with both simultaneously, one of the two must take precedence.

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