Thenn taunt order vs Cav free manouvres

[Bazzu]

If the leaked rule for thenns is correct (when an enemy unit activates etcetc you must declare a charge action) how would it interact with cav free maneuver? Assuming obviously the test is failed.

I believe that:

Timing is different (activates is before start of activation) so the order takes precedence, cav must declare a charge action, therefore using the 1 action available per activation and lose the free manouv due to be engaged

I ve posted also on facebook and the above seems to be the main line of thought

[Fronx]

The way I see it:

- Timing is same, even if the text very very slightly differs. But when comparing certain Stark cards on FAQ, the subtle difference is similar in this case to those Stark cards in FAQ (that are ruled in FAQ that they are the same trigger, even if worded similarly differently). Thus, as the timing is same, simultaneous actions rule kicks in, and active player is first (meaning, Free Maneuver happens). FAQ is FAQ, not Errata, thus one can and should make interpretations according to other FAQ entries, to other, similar questions. (From Errata, one should not interpret other cards on the other hand, as those are error corrections, not answers on how to interpret the rules). So if certain cards are FAQd in certain way, then one can presume, that similar different cards follow same FAQ logic.


- Even if the Order would trigger before Free Maneuver, the Order does not tell to break the rules of the game. It just states, that the unit must declare a Charge action. It does not block or nullify any other effects the targeted Unit might have. Declaration of action happens in very specific moment (unless the ability specifically specifies otherwise, but in this case the Order does not), and there are abilities and effects that might happen before that declaration. Like Free Maneuver. There are certain words missing from the Order (like "instead of [any other] action" or "immediately" or "stop everything else, do this NOW". The rule book has to be obeyed, and triggers and events keep on triggering and effecting as before, even if the Order removed some liberties of choice from the owner of the target, when he/she gets to the part where he/she gets to "choose" Charge action.


But latter is moot point, as/if the timing of the Order and Free Maneuver is the same.

[serbaelish]

Going to agree with Fronx here. The wording of the Order doesn't give any clear indication that it takes precedence over the cavalry's activation, so this reads pretty cut-and-dried simultaneous actions.

The order reads "When an enemy unit...activates".

A typical cavalry unit's ability reads "At the start of this unit's activation...".

Additionally, ruling that the two aren't simultaneous grants the Thenns an advantage even if the Order fails, in that the cav wouldn't get to make their free maneuver. That seems a bit counter-intuitive.

[Bazzu]

Going to agree with Fronx here. The wording of the Order doesn't give any clear indication that it takes precedence over the cavalry's activation, so this reads pretty cut-and-dried simultaneous actions.

The order reads "When an enemy unit...activates".

A typical cavalry unit's ability reads "At the start of this unit's activation...".

Additionally, ruling that the two aren't simultaneous grants the Thenns an advantage even if the Order fails, in that the cav wouldn't get to make their free maneuver. That seems a bit counter-intuitive.

I m ok if told that is simultaneous as that was my doubt in the first place (though it would open up loopholes)

what i didn t understand is why if the order fails the cav wouldn t get to make their free maneuver.

as regards to loopholes i m referring to, what if the opponent gives you his back and after fails his morale, what then? He can charge anything else ignoring the order? Doesn t seem a good flow. I mean if someone taunts you and you fall for it you d be focused on getting payback.

also pg 8 of the rule book states:

Select 1 unit to activate: The player will now select 1 of their units that has not yet activated this round to activate. This may be either a Combat Unit or a Non-Combat Unit. That unit will THEN perform 1 action (see Actions, pg. 15). This is known as a unit’s activation

Between “selecting a unit” and “perform action” there is written “Then”. Doesn t that mean there is a step in between activating and actually doing any action

[Bazzu]

Also I have found this ruling by Shinall that unit activates happens before ANY action is taken

http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/showthread.php?67962-Tyrion-commander-rules-questions&p=883940#post883940

So I do believe that it is a different timing

[serbaelish]

Sorry, the forum crapped out right after I made my last post in this thread, so I didn't get a chance to edit it.

I think we're in agreement. The order of operations would be:

1) Cavalry activates, and Thenn's react by use Taunt order
2) Cavalry gets free maneuver
3) Resolve Taunt

So, if the cavalry lose line of sight because of their maneuver, Taunt is burned.

I don't see from Michael's responses anything that contradicts this being a case of simultaneous actions. Cunning Ploy is a tactic you play on yourself, so you can either take the free maneuver or play Cunning Ploy, but not both. And Delay Orders triggers prior to activation, so would have to be played before it.

[Bazzu]

Sorry, the forum crapped out right after I made my last post in this thread, so I didn't get a chance to edit it.

I think we're in agreement. The order of operations would be:

1) Cavalry activates, and Thenn's react by use Taunt order
2) Cavalry gets free maneuver
3) Resolve Taunt

So, if the cavalry lose line of sight because of their maneuver, Taunt is burned.

I don't see from Michael's responses anything that contradicts this being a case of simultaneous actions. Cunning Ploy is a tactic you play on yourself, so you can either take the free maneuver or play Cunning Ploy, but not both. And Delay Orders triggers prior to activation, so would have to be played before it.

delay orders yes I agree as it s worded would activate

didn t he write though at the start of activation is before ANY actions are taken (free or not) meaning it s a step ahead of cav free manouv. Cav free manouv is not when you activate but start of activation.

i believe that sequence is

start of turn
declare and activate unit
start of activation
action

for example swift advance yes would burn the order 100% because trigger is when unit activates

[serbaelish]

delay orders yes I agree as it s worded would activate

didn t he write though at the start of activation is before ANY actions are taken (free or not) meaning it s a step ahead of cav free manouv. Cav free manouv is not when you activate but start of activation.

for example swift advance yes would burn the order 100%

Yes, but this is in the case of Cunning Ploy, which you are only resolving before any actions are taken because undertaking any other action would negate it. And since this is something you're playing on your own unit, that's not something you want to do. This doesn't change the timing, it's just a stress on the fact that if you do anything else, you can't use the tactic. This would include taking the free maneuver.

[CMON Michael Shinall]

Sorry, the forum crapped out right after I made my last post in this thread, so I didn't get a chance to edit it.

I think we're in agreement. The order of operations would be:

1) Cavalry activates, and Thenn's react by use Taunt order
2) Cavalry gets free maneuver
3) Resolve Taunt

So, if the cavalry lose line of sight because of their maneuver, Taunt is burned.

This would be the correct order of operations here. Cavalry activate, which in turn triggers Taunt.

Taunt's only effect is that the affected unit must Charge the Thenns if able. It does not remove any effects, benefits, abilities, etc etc at all- it just imposes a restriction if conditions are met (in this case, being able to Charge the Thenns). If those conditions are not able to be met (again, being able to declare a legal Charge against the Thenns) then the effect cannot take place.

[Bazzu]

This would be the correct order of operations here. Cavalry activate, which in turn triggers Taunt.

Taunt's only effect is that the affected unit must Charge the Thenns if able. It does not remove any effects, benefits, abilities, etc etc at all- it just imposes a restriction if conditions are met (in this case, being able to Charge the Thenns). If those conditions are not able to be met (again, being able to declare a legal Charge against the Thenns) then the effect cannot take place.

ok thanks.

shame then the order does not work on cav

[CMON Michael Shinall]

ok thanks.

shame then the order does not work on cav

Well, it does, in that it would force re-positioning on them to avoid Charging the Thenns, if their controller wanted to avoid that effect.

[Psychopath]

So the cavalry only has to turn away (Thenns outside front arc) and the wanted target in the front arc to allow the cavalry to ignore the Thenns?

[Bazzu]

Well, it does, in that it would force re-positioning on them to avoid Charging the Thenns, if their controller wanted to avoid that effect.

Yes sure got that

what I meant is cav can by pass this effect by turning away (removing thenns from LOS)and charge another unit or in the case of shooting cav shoot at another target by using the free maneuver well.

[Bazzu]

So the cavalry only has to turn away (Thenns outside front arc) and the wanted target in the front arc to allow the cavalry to ignore the Thenns?

yes correct

[AutumnLeaves]

That's not so bad - if the Thenn are no longer in LOS there's a good chance the cavalry won't be able to charge much else, either.