Can you use Tyrion Lannister - Haflman's Order after failing with Varys?
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Thread: Can you use Tyrion Lannister - Haflman's Order after failing with Varys?

  1. #1

    Default Can you use Tyrion Lannister - Haflman's Order after failing with Varys?

    If my opponent plays a card that replaces a zone's effect on the Tactics Board, such as Sudden Charge, and I try and fail with Varys's ability, can I then use Tyrion Lannister - Halfman's Order (or play Counterplot) to attempt to stop the effect of the card?

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  2. #2

    Default

    Simple answer is yes
    Currently it seems it would go like...

    1. Active player claims a zone
    2. Active player declares "when you claim" effects (sudden charge)
    3. Try Tyrions order/Counterplot (interrupting the flow, since the active player played a card)
    4. Then you would declare your own "when a zone is claimed" effect (Varys)
    5. Resolve Varys first (otherwise he doesnt work against guys like Pycelle)
    6. Active player resolves effects
    7. You resolve any remaining effects

    Some folks play Varys and resolve him as soon as the active player claims a zone, basically as if the trigger for Varys read "When an opponent WOULD claim a zone", which is fine with me. In that case it would be

    1. Active player claims a zone
    2. Trigger and resolve Varys (unless active opponent has "WOULD claim a zone effects, dont think there is any though, if there were then normal steps for simultaneous would occur)
    3. Active Player declares "when a zone is claimed" effects (sudden charge)
    4. Tyrions/Counterplots trigger is met and can interrupt to try and cancel
    5. Non active player declares "when a zone is claimed" effects
    6. Active player resolve effects
    7. Non active players resolves effects

    Varys' Trigger seems to be ever so slightly off for what he is supposed to do, but we know that he prevents "when a zone is claimed" effects like Pycelle for example, so he needs to resolve before the active player somehow. Either way, you can Varys and Counterplot if you want, depending on how you handle the Varys interaction, not sure which one goes first. Just be consistent for the whole game and communicate with your opponent.

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRedGod View Post
    1. Active player claims a zone
    2. Active player declares "when you claim" effects (sudden charge)
    3. Try Tyrions order/Counterplot (interrupting the flow, since the active player played a card)
    4. Then you would declare your own "when a zone is claimed" effect (Varys)
    5. Resolve Varys first (otherwise he doesnt work against guys like Pycelle)
    6. Active player resolves effects
    7. You resolve any remaining effects
    I agree with this.

    There is no way to have Tyrion after the Varys, as that just would be strange: Tyrion must be used before the Tactics Card is fully resolved (or the window do use it has passed). Varys, according to all past evidence, must be used after the Tactics Card is resolved (Or Varys simply could not prevent it / work the way it has been said previously to work). Even though, the trigger for Varys is same as the playing of the Tactics card.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheRedGod View Post
    Varys' Trigger seems to be ever so slightly off for what he is supposed to do, but we know that he prevents "when a zone is claimed" effects like Pycelle for example, so he needs to resolve before the active player somehow.
    Exactly: Varys breaks the normal order of rules (been discussed also in this forum way back). While it is not clear from the card, it is clear from the intent / official rulings, even though the "why this breaks the order of simultaneous actions resolution" has not been explained.

    To summarize that old, old discussion (annoying to use seach of this forum):

    The normal simultanoues actions rule goes like this:
    - Active player triggers.
    - Non-active player triggers.
    - Active player resolves.
    - Non-active player resolves.


    On Varys though, for Varys to be able to function at all:
    - Active player triggers.
    - Non-active player triggers.
    - VARYS player resolves, even though is non-active player and should not have priority.
    - Active player resolves (or doesn't, if Varys successfully cancelled).
    Last edited by Fronx; 10-15-2019 at 08:30 AM.

  4. #4

    Default

    So to summarise; you cannot use Varys and THEN Tyrion/Counterplot?

    If you're going to use Varys and Tyrion/Counterplot (because you really, really want to stop the enemy's tactics card) you must resolve Tyrion/Counterplot first and then resolve Varys? If Tyrion/Counterplot is successful you are also still committed to using Varys, even if you no longer wish/need to (his ability will however shut off the Zone as well, where as Tyrion/Counterplot only shuts off the Tactics Card, meaning the opponent will still be able to use the claimed Zone if Varys fails)?

    If you opt to use Varys and he fails you cannot then use Tyrion/Counterplot because the window has passed?
    Chaos is a ladder.

  5. #5

    Default

    No. As soon as the active player plays sudden charge you try Tyrion. The active player then continues to declare effects after that. Then you declare effects (Varys), if you want to.

  6. #6

    Default

    So to summarise (hopefully correctly this time!); you cannot use Varys and THEN Tyrion/Counterplot?

    If you're going to use Varys and Tyrion/Counterplot (because you really, really want to stop the enemy's tactics card) you must declare and resolve Tyrion/Counterplot first? If Tyrion/Counterplot is unsuccessful you can then declare and resolve Varys?

    If you opt to declare and resolve Varys and he fails you cannot then use Tyrion/Counterplot because the window has passed?
    Chaos is a ladder.

  7. #7

    Default

    Yes. According to the current wording, by the time you would be able to declare the use of Varys (when an enemy NCU claims a zone), you would have already passed your window to use Tyrion (when an opponent plays a card) to stop Sudden Charge.

  8. #8

    Default

    What confuses me is that the trigger for Varys (When an enemy NCU claims a zone on Tactics Board) happens before the trigger for Tyrion (When an opponent plays a Tactics Card). Is this because - as you and Fronx mention above - the way you play and resolve Varys is actually slightly different to what is written on his card? His trigger and timing is slightly different that it first appears RAW. Hence the following FAQ:

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    I'm not disputing your (and Fronx's) interpretation, I'm just trying to understand it so that, should this ever come up in a game, I can explain to my opponent why it works the way it does and not the way it would first appear to work.
    Chaos is a ladder.

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dean Rothwell View Post
    What confuses me is that the trigger for Varys (When an enemy NCU claims a zone on Tactics Board) happens before the trigger for Tyrion (When an opponent plays a Tactics Card). Is this because - as you and Fronx mention above - the way you play and resolve Varys is actually slightly different to what is written on his card? His trigger and timing is slightly different that it first appears RAW. Hence the following FAQ:

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    I'm not disputing your (and Fronx's) interpretation, I'm just trying to understand it so that, should this ever come up in a game, I can explain to my opponent why it works the way it does and not the way it would first appear to work.
    No, you're perfectly right, these cancellations break simultaneous turns rules, and it makes things confusing and unclear. I took some time, and I have changed my mind to 3rd option: I'm not sure how it should go. Rule book does not tell it to us.


    Long rationale:

    Normally, without a Tactic Card being played, without Tyrion or Varys, everything is easy:
    - Active player declares if he triggers something in trigger.
    - Non-active player declares if he triggers something in trigger.
    - Active player resolves above declared effect.
    - Non-active player resolves above declared effect.

    On Varys and Tyrion though, for them to be able to function at all, order must be different and rules must be broken:
    "Thing" here is either 'claiming a zone', or 'playing a Tactics card'.
    - Active player declares action on trigger "thing".
    - Non-active player declares action on trigger "thing".
    - VARYS/TYRION player resolves, even though is non-active player and should not have priority, just to see if the "thing" (or thing following the "thing") is cancelled or not.
    - Active player resolves (or doesn't, if the "thing" was successfully cancelled).

    When Tactic Card is being played, and Varys and Tyrion is involved:
    The items marked with X I am unsure of which order they should be. It could be also other way around, but there is no rule clarification to specify how it goes. I'm suspect RAI is, that Varys/Tyrion interruptions are resolved immediately, meaning Tyrion would be resolved 1st, and then Varys would be declared as being triggered.
    - Active player triggers "claiming zone" as he is claiming zone, playing additionally a Tactic card to that trigger.
    - Non-active player triggers to "enemy playing a Tactic card" by using Tyrion order (this is not yet triggering to "claiming zone". Playing Tactic card causes it's own cycle of triggers and resolutions on top of pending triggers and resolutions)
    X - TYRION player must resolve to figure out what happens to the card, even though he is a) non-active player and should not have priority, and b) resolving something ahead of time: You have not yet declared you use of Varys for "enemy is claiming a zone" trigger, but you are already resolving something related to active players play on that trigger!
    X
    - Non-active player must declare Varys for the trigger that is long overdue: "enemy is claiming a zone". (or, as said, maybe this declaration should happen before Tyrion resolution? In any case, Varys trigger is later than Tyrions trigger, and Varys resolution is later than Tyrion resolution but not sure about the position of Tyrion resolution VS Varys trigger)
    - Active player resolves the played Tactic Card now (or doesn't, if Tyrion successfully cancelled).
    - VARYS player resolves the "claiming zone" triggers effect now, even though he is non-active player and should not have priority.
    - Active player resolves "claiming zone" triggers effect now (or doesn't, if Varys successfully cancelled).

    If we would follow the rule book for simultaneous actions rules, everything would be broken and Varys and Tyrion cause division by zero, cancelling things that have already happened due to simultaneous actions rule:
    - Active player triggers "claiming zone" as he is claiming zone, playing additionally a Tactic card to that trigger.
    - Non-active player triggers to "enemy playing a Tactic card" by using Tyrion order.
    - Non-active player would now trigger Varys for "claiming zone" trigger, as Active player cannot resolve it's card before Non-active has also had opportunity to trigger.
    - Active player would now resolve the Tactics Card.
    - Non-active player would now resolve Tyrion order (due to simultaneous actions rule). But wait, that card was already resolved, we need a time machine to undo it!
    - Active player resolves "NCU claiming zone" now.
    - Non-active player would now resolve Varys effect (due to simultaneous actions rule). But wait, that whole NCU claiming zone situation was already resolved by active player, we need a time machine to undo it!

    Summarum: Varys and Tyrion cancellations interrupt normal flow of time and space, which rule book does not define, and which is not clarified anywhere. It becomes extra interesting when Varys and Tyrion are intervening together something.
    Last edited by Fronx; 10-18-2019 at 06:06 AM.

  10. #10

    Default

    I'm not sure exactly why people are trying to bring Simultaneous Actions rule into this discussion in regards to Tyrion and Varys, as it only applies to Sudden Charge and Varys. Tyrion is not interacting with anything else.


    Player A activates NCU, claims a zone.
    --> Trigger, Sudden Charge
    --> Trigger, Varys

    Both of these have been triggered by the zone being claimed

    New Event --> Tactics card was played
    --> Trigger, Tyrion, because a Tactics Card was played.

    This is happening independent of anything else. Tyrion doesn't care that a zone was claimed, that Varys is being used, only that a Tactics Card was played.

    Tyrion resolves --> Card was either cancelled or not.

    That event is now done, gameplay continues, which is now resolving Sudden Charge and Varys.

    Sudden Charge, being the active player's card, has to resolve first. If Tyrion cancelled it, it has no effect, so there is nothing to resolve. If he didn't, it will replace the zone's effect.
    Varys now resolves, rolling to either cancel the effect of the zone (whatever it is) or the NCU.

    Effect of zone will now resolve (which may end up being nothing, if Varys was successful).
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