Martial Superiority
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Thread: Martial Superiority

  1. #1

    Default Martial Superiority

    I posted this on the FB group awhile ago and it got a bit of a debate going with no clear conclusion
    Reposting here to see if I could get a clearer answer


    NW player activates Builder Crossbowmen and uses it's range attack
    NW player plays "Mighty Enhancement"

    Stark player plays "Martial Superiority"
    For the ease of discussion, assume the defending unit does not contain Rodrik Cassel

    NW player would roll 5 dice with no rerolls. Sundering and Crits would also be lost.
    Am I right in this interpretation?

    There is 2 main question:
    1. Are effects granted by the tactic card in this case considered "abilities"
    2. If they are, are abilities restricted to only "keywords" (e.g. is the re-roll in this case considered an ability also)
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Last edited by rogue7; 11-20-2019 at 09:05 PM. Reason: fixing images

  2. #2

    Default

    Effects from tactics cards are not considered abilities in and of themselves; however, they may include an effect that grants an ability. Per the rules (pg. 10), "each Ability is unique and lists its full rules." So playing Martial Superiority would cancel both Sundering and Critical Blow, but not the re-rolls. The re-rolls aren't a unique ability, they're an effect granted by the tactic card.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  3. #3

    Default

    I can't find anything in the rulebook that restricts abilities to just keywords (e.g. Sundering, Critical Blows) and not the re-rolls
    The re-rolls could be considered unique as it also does not stack

    The way I read it is the tactic card grants the "Mighty Enhancement" ability to the attack.
    This "Mighty Enhancement" ability includes Critical Blows and Re-rolls
    Therefore, if the ability is cancelled, both crits and re-rolls would be lost

    I see 2 interpretations that is the most straight-forward:
    1. If the effect of the card is not considered an ability, the attack would still have Crits and Re-rolls
    2. If the effect of the card is considered an ability, crits and re-rolls would be lost

  4. #4

    Default

    Again, Tactics cards have an effect, as defined on page 23. Specifically, "Each Tactics card lists its specific effect." The title of the Tactic card is just that--it's title. It really should not be considered a named Abiliity.

    Now, part of that effect may be to grant an Ability, such as Critical Blow. Again, we know that it's an Ability both because it is specifically named within the effect and it lists its full rules.

    And re-rolls are most certainly not unique--the very first sentence detailing them (pg. 24) states "Numerous effects allow for dice to be re-rolled."

    That's why I noted the interpretation that you'd lose Sundering and Critical Blow, but not re-rolls.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  5. #5

    Default

    "Attack gains Critical Hit ability" and "Unit gains Critical Hit ability" is same thing?

  6. #6

    Default

    Ok, I understand where you're coming from.
    You interpret it as abilities have to be unique.

    Could I suggest another example:
    NW player played "Precision Enhancement" instead.
    Would the "Hits from 6 do not allow defence saves" be lost?
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  7. #7

    Default

    I just noticed that there was a similar question asked last week at http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...ction-question that leans towards both being lost

    -----------------------------------------
    How I visualize the effects resolving is like so:

    Imagine the Crossbow ability box from the unit card as so

    Crossbow
    - Long Range
    - Sundering

    When "Mighty Enhancement" resolves, it becomes

    Crossbow
    - Long Range
    - Sundering
    - Critical Blow
    - You may re-roll any attack dice

    When "Martial Superiority" resolves, it becomes

    Crossbow
    - Long Range

    --------------------------------------------------------------

    Also, I'm sorry but after re-reading the relevant sections multiple times, I still do not understand why re-rolls would not be considered an "ability" in this case?
    "Numerous effects allow for dice to be re-rolled." including abilities (i.e. Opportunistic of the Crannogman Warden). What makes it in this case that it is not considered an ability?

  8. #8

    Default

    CMON just posted an article on 1.5 revisions that's very relevant to this thread: https://www.cmon.com/news/visions-in...-in-update-1-5.

    The money quote is "Removing a unit's Abilities will have no effect on Abilities/Effects granted by NCU or Tactics Cards unless specifically mentioned." Don't know if there will be corresponding changes to cards because of this, but it would clarify this particular situation. Unit would lose Sundering, but retain Critical Blow and re-rolls.

    Given how complicated these card interactions could get, I'm really digging this update.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  9. #9

    Default

    straight buff to othell for sure! gives him some use with SB as well if they ever lose their abilities, helps counter walder too.

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