Timing of expending a token
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Thread: Timing of expending a token

  1. #1

    Default Timing of expending a token

    Is 'expending token' simultaneous trigger with Tactics Cards / Orders / Abilities with trigger 'after <attack/defense/panic/morale> dice are rolled'.
    E.g. do you have to play above mentioned 'after <X> dice are rolled' abilities / cards / orders same time (simultaneously) as you (or your opponent) expends a token to force a re-roll, effectively not knowing the end result of the roll as re-roll can still modify the result?



    Reason for this question is in the Rule book v1.4, page 24, chapter 'Condition Tokens':

    Each token has a specific trigger for when it can be expended, as well as a specific effect.
    [...]
    PANICKED: Expend this token after an enemy rolls a Morale Test to force them to re-roll any/all of those dice.
    VULNERABLE:
    Expend this token after an enemy rolls Defense dice to force them to re-roll any/all of those dice.
    WEAKENED:
    Expend this token after an enemy rolls Attack dice to force them to re-roll any/all of those dice.

  2. #2

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    Specifically, can you trigger tactical approach immediately from a weakened token that a unit gained by rolling a 1 against Baratheon Wardens Warhammer attack?

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fronx View Post
    Is 'expending token' simultaneous trigger with Tactics Cards / Orders / Abilities with trigger 'after <attack/defense/panic/morale> dice are rolled'.
    E.g. do you have to play above mentioned 'after <X> dice are rolled' abilities / cards / orders same time (simultaneously) as you (or your opponent) expends a token to force a re-roll, effectively not knowing the end result of the roll as re-roll can still modify the result?


    Reason for this question is in the Rule book v1.4, page 24, chapter 'Condition Tokens':

    Each token has a specific trigger for when it can be expended, as well as a specific effect.
    [...]
    PANICKED: Expend this token after an enemy rolls a Morale Test to force them to re-roll any/all of those dice.
    VULNERABLE:
    Expend this token after an enemy rolls Defense dice to force them to re-roll any/all of those dice.
    WEAKENED:
    Expend this token after an enemy rolls Attack dice to force them to re-roll any/all of those dice.

    Expending tokens does not interfere with any triggers.

    Q: Can I expend Condition tokens while also utilizing other effects with similar timing? A: Yes.


    The trigger for using tokens is "after defense saves" "after attack rolls" "after panic test". This is the same exact wording and condition as... Well all the examples you just asked. This makes it simultaneous, which means active player would resolve their effects before opponents. So in the case of both players having re-rolls, the attacker (usually) would need to decide if using token before opponent's re-roll effects.

    This is the same reason why Charge Re-rolls happen, then Weakened re-rolls happen, in that order.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codfather View Post
    Specifically, can you trigger tactical approach immediately from a weakened token that a unit gained by rolling a 1 against Baratheon Wardens Warhammer attack?

    No, this has been answered before. Warhammer only gives a Weakened token when the final result has been generated, which makes it far past the trigger for Tactical Approach.

    Short answer: You cant use something you haven't gained yet.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    No, this has been answered before. Warhammer only gives a Weakened token when the final result has been generated, which makes it far past the trigger for Tactical Approach.

    Short answer: You cant use something you haven't gained yet.
    Of course you can't use something you haven't gained yet. However since it's not specified, the most logical timing for the weakened token to be put on the unit would be after the defense dice are rolled. Does that seem reasonable?

    If that's the case, then the putting of the weakened token and the triggering of tactical approach would be the same window, ie after defense saves have all been rolled. Therefor, assuming the baratheon player is the active player in this instance, couldn't they resolve it as place weakened token, play tactical approach?


    I understand why they can't immediately use the weakened token as a vulnerable token as the actual trigger window for "after defense saves are rolled" should logically be the final result, therefore by the time they get the weakened token, it's passed the trigger window to use it as a vulnerable.

  6. #6

    Default

    hes already explained how that doesnt work, the token is placed after "after defense dice are rolled" and thus missed the trigger to use tactical approach.

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnalexander View Post
    hes already explained how that doesnt work, the token is placed after "after defense dice are rolled" and thus missed the trigger to use tactical approach.
    I still don't understand why that is though.

    On pg 24 of the rule book under conditions it basically says condition tokens are spent after dice are rolled which I suppose explains why a weakened from War Hammer cannot be spent with Target Opening.

    However, after the rerolls from vulnerable would occure, is there another "after defense dice are rolled" window there before going into wound allocation? Since that is after defense dice are rolled (re-rollled).

    It seems like both tactical approach and Warhammer would trigger in this window after the vulnerable rerolls have been applied but before wounds have been allocated. UNLESS the only "after defense dice are rolled" trigger window occurs before vulnerable reroll and before the defense dice results have technically been finalized. Which certainly could be the case, but seems unintuitive.

  8. #8

    Default

    Hmmm, maybe I'm starting to get it. Is the only trigger window for "after defense dice are rolled" before a potential vulnerable reroll?

  9. #9

    Default

    the trigger is the first roll

    So its,
    Declare Attack
    Roll
    Declare charge or other reroll (if applicable)
    Declare weakened Reroll (Non active player)
    Resolve Charge (or other) Reroll
    Resolve Weakened Reroll


    This is all clear from the facebook discussion started by bejamin lin regarding Triggers, declaration and resolution timings. In addition it was further established in a second post, that there is no second "after attack dice are rolled" window per the discussion on Great John Umbers Order.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Codfather View Post
    I still don't understand why that is though.

    On pg 24 of the rule book under conditions it basically says condition tokens are spent after dice are rolled which I suppose explains why a weakened from War Hammer cannot be spent with Target Opening.

    However, after the rerolls from vulnerable would occure, is there another "after defense dice are rolled" window there before going into wound allocation? Since that is after defense dice are rolled (re-rollled).

    It seems like both tactical approach and Warhammer would trigger in this window after the vulnerable rerolls have been applied but before wounds have been allocated. UNLESS the only "after defense dice are rolled" trigger window occurs before vulnerable reroll and before the defense dice results have technically been finalized. Which certainly could be the case, but seems unintuitive.
    yes, there arent two different triggers called "after defense dice are rolled." they are the same trigger

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    Expending tokens does not interfere with any triggers.

    Q: Can I expend Condition tokens while also utilizing other effects with similar timing? A: Yes.


    The trigger for using tokens is "after defense saves" "after attack rolls" "after panic test". This is the same exact wording and condition as... Well all the examples you just asked. This makes it simultaneous, which means active player would resolve their effects before opponents. So in the case of both players having re-rolls, the attacker (usually) would need to decide if using token before opponent's re-roll effects.

    This is the same reason why Charge Re-rolls happen, then Weakened re-rolls happen, in that order.
    I think the main point of my question was not directly answered, but what I extrapolated from that:

    When Charge attack dice hit the ground for the 1st time, before any re-rolls, it is the trigger "after dice rolled" (even though the results are not final).
    So at that moment, both attacker and defender must declare if they use re-rolls (e.g. the defender cannot wait to see, how attackers re-roll goes).
    AND at that very same time, both have to decide also if they play any Abilities, Tactics Cards or Orders that are "after attack dice are rolled" triggered, without yet really knowing the outcome of the roll yet (as re-rolls have not yet happened, they have just been announced that they will be triggered (and then when all announced, then starting to resolve them as per simultaneous rules).


    I think most are playing this wrong like following (as example, Charge attack):
    - Attacker rolls the dice.
    - Then Attacker decides if he re-rolls.
    - After attacker re-rolled, defender seeing the re-roll result, decides now separately if he forces re-roll (which is wrong according to above, should have decided it same time as attacker decided).
    - After all re-rolls, and now the dice facing being final and available for both to see, both players play "after <X> dice rolled" triggered orders and tactics cards (which again according to above would be wrong, should have triggered these earlier, 1st time when the dices hit the ground, but before any re-rolls).

    I think even in all play videos that I have seen, everyone is following above order, and not following simultaneous actions ruling with re-rolls and "after <X> dice rolled" abilities / orders / Tactic Cards.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daboarder View Post
    the trigger is the first roll

    So its,
    Declare Attack
    Roll
    Declare charge or other reroll (if applicable)
    Declare weakened Reroll (Non active player)
    Resolve Charge (or other) Reroll
    Resolve Weakened Reroll
    Alrighty, I finally understand! There is no "after defense dice are rolled" trigger window after a vulnerable reroll!

    But Goddamn that is unintuitive!

  13. #13

    Default

    I was searching for an answer in the rulebook and I think that those two excerpts support that you have to use cards and orders simultaneous with the weakened token after the initial attack dice roll

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    Last edited by SavageKetrab; 11-25-2019 at 03:07 PM.

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