Mandon Moore Gaining Vicious During an Attack
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Thread: Mandon Moore Gaining Vicious During an Attack

  1. #1

    Default Mandon Moore Gaining Vicious During an Attack

    Suppose the Lannister player controls the crown and Mandon Moore, Kingsguard, is in a unit with three ranks remaining that makes a melee attack against a unit with three ranks remaining. The attack deals enough unblocked hits to reduce the defending unit to two ranks. Now it must make a panic test. Does the defending unit suffer -2 on this panic test from Mandon Moore's Dominance of the Crown ability? For reference, Dominance of the Crown reads:
    While you control :crown:, this unit's Melee Attacks gain +1 to Hit, and when attacking enemies with fewer remaining ranks than this unit, also gains Vicious (Defender suffers -2 to their Panic Test).

  2. #2

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    I’d have to rule no on this one. At the time the attack was initiated, the defender did not have less ranks.
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  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlxRaven View Post
    I’d have to rule no on this one. At the time the attack was initiated, the defender did not have less ranks.
    Does it matter whether they had Vicious when the attack is initiated though? If they have it when the panic test is made wouldn't that be when it matters?

  4. #4

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    In my opinion, they would not have vicious during any part of that attack, because they had equal ranks when the attack began. If they attacked them a second time while they were at full ranks, and the other unit wounded, then they would get it.
    House - Ravenhurst
    Sigil - Black raven on a copper field, clutching paintbrushes
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlxRaven View Post
    In my opinion, they would not have vicious during any part of that attack, because they had equal ranks when the attack began. If they attacked them a second time while they were at full ranks, and the other unit wounded, then they would get it.

    I concur with this--you're checking ranks at the time the attack occurs only. You can't retroactively gain Vicious after the attack has occurred.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by serbaelish View Post
    You can't retroactively gain Vicious after the attack has occurred.
    They don't gain vicious after the attack has occurred. They gain vicious during the attack after models are removed from the wounds inflicted by unblocked hits but before the panic test is made.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by MechMage View Post
    They don't gain vicious after the attack has occurred. They gain vicious during the attack after models are removed from the wounds inflicted by unblocked hits but before the panic test is made.
    The rulebook states that "Panic Tests usually occur after a unit is attacked...".

    Further, there is nothing on Mandon's card that indicates that Vicious would be added at any time other than when you are comparing ranks, which you do at the onset of the attack.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by serbaelish View Post
    The rulebook states that "Panic Tests usually occur after a unit is attacked...".

    Further, there is nothing on Mandon's card that indicates that Vicious would be added at any time other than when you are comparing ranks, which you do at the onset of the attack.
    Page 19 of the rulebook lists the steps of performing an attack.
    -Determine Attack Dice
    -Roll Attack Dice
    -Defender Rolls Defense Dice
    -Defender Suffers Wounds
    -Defender Makes Panic Test

    Since the last step is "Defender Makes Panic Test" that test is part of the attack.
    There's nothing on Moore's card that indicates that his abilities compares ranks singularly at the onset of the attack instead of at the step to roll attack dice and again at the step to make a panic test. Where do you get the idea that he checks at the onset?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by MechMage View Post
    Since the last step is "Defender Makes Panic Test" that test is part of the attack.
    There's nothing on Moore's card that indicates that his abilities compares ranks singularly at the onset of the attack instead of at the step to roll attack dice and again at the step to make a panic test. Where do you get the idea that he checks at the onset?
    I agree that there's nothing explicit for when that check is made, but I think it's more of a stretch to state that the ability works in a way that's substantially different than other attack abilities (e.g., Precision, Sundering) than that it is timed in the same manner.

    I also think it's a bit too inexpensive for that broad a range of application. Jaime's Kingsguard is also 2 pts, and his Attachment kill roll is 3+.

    IMHO, of course.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by serbaelish View Post
    I agree that there's nothing explicit for when that check is made, but I think it's more of a stretch to state that the ability works in a way that's substantially different than other attack abilities (e.g., Precision, Sundering) than that it is timed in the same manner.

    I also think it's a bit too inexpensive for that broad a range of application. Jaime's Kingsguard is also 2 pts, and his Attachment kill roll is 3+.

    IMHO, of course.
    What other attack abilities are there that a unit can gain or lose based on a condition that can change during an attack? Maybe there's something else I'm not thinking of but as far as I can remember Dominance of the Crown is the only ability that changes a unit's attributes based on what it's doing at any given moment. The closest I can think of is the Cave Dweller Savages' Ruthless Savagery but that choice is made when making an attack, presumably before attack dice are rolled but now that I think of it that unit would also benefit from some clarification.
    I'm got to disagree about MM being inexpensive but the difference between Vicious only when attacking units that start with fewer ranks and while controlling the crown and Vicious when attacking units reduced to lower ranks while controlling the crown is a very slim one IMO.

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