War machine
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Thread: War machine

  1. #1

    Default War machine

    Maybe (and for me it's obligated) the subject has already be treated but I'm wondering.
    If I play a Paid Mutiny on a war machine isn't it automatic. Because the unit can not pass her test for she never makes a test.
    Same question, why the text saying "this model never makes a morale test" became "this model automaticly passes morale test" ?

  2. #2

    Default

    Yeah the Scorpion Crew and the Stone Throwers won't ever have to take morale check, so they can't pass and they can't succeed either. Paid mutiny states in its first sentence that "that unit must pass a morale test". Since the War Machines can't make those tests, the whole card doesn't apply to War Machines, so it'd be a wasted use of the card.

  3. #3

    Default

    I don't agree. In the case of Paid mutiny the unit doesn't complete the denfensive part. Unless she passes she suffers aftermath. Because it's a war machine she can't pass but not being able to do something is not sufficent to be immune.
    And for the second part of my interrogation, why "she never makes" is read as "she's immune"? Why it doesn't meant "she automaticly fails"...

  4. #4

    Default

    You may not agree, but that's what it means as written.

    If a unit cannot make a type of test, then you can't apply any effect related to success or failure of such a test: the event just cannot occur. You can play the card, but it will have no effect on it. Keep in mind that this also means that any beneficial effect from a morale test could not be applied to the war machines.

    Bottom line: don't play Paid Mutiny on a War machine
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 12-06-2019 at 03:41 PM.

  5. #5

    Default

    Excuse me, are you official ? Your way of writing is very rude.
    The card says "The unit must pass a test or..." which means that the effect is not a consequence of failing the test but that a success can cancel it.
    I'm wondering and I find that my interpretation is possibily corerct. I come here to have debate and reponse of an official.

  6. #6

    Default

    I've got no idea where Oakwolf's interpretation is coming from. Wishful thinking that the game would be intuitive maybe? Paid Mutiny blanks a unit if it can't pass a morale test. Since war machines can't make morale tests, let alone pass them, the effect that happens in the case of not passing, blanking and d3 wounds, automatically happens. Conversely, they can't fail either so even if the Lannister player controls the purse zone the war machine still suffers d3 wounds instead of 3. That's my read of the cards anyway. I hope this makes it into the next FAQ though since I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't how it's intended to work.

  7. #7

    Default

    I am not being rude, i am trying to save your time on this one.

    I feel you translate it wrongly . The unit must pass (i.e. succeed a test) or suffer consequences. In order to pass a test, the unit must be able to make one in the first place.

    Problem is: The test cannot be made by the War Machine unit, and as such, the consequence is never applied.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakwolf View Post
    I am not being rude, i am trying to save your time on this one.

    I feel you translate it wrongly . The unit must pass (i.e. succeed a test) or suffer consequences. In order to pass a test, the unit must be able to make one in the first place.

    Problem is: The test cannot be made by the War Machine unit, and as such, the consequence is never applied.
    I don't understand your logic here. An affect is applied if the affected unit does not pass a morale test. A war machine can not make a morale test therefore it can not pass a morale test. Since the affected unit can not pass the morale test the affect will always be applied. Do you think the card aborts when the test can't be made? If that's your reasoning I'd like to know what it's based on because tactics cards can complete in part even if some of their effects can not be applied.

  9. #9

    Default

    My logic may be flawed, i don't know...maybe i am wrong too, but so far that rule had never been a subject of discussion in our games. To us it was clear that the rule of the War Machines took them out of any morale checks, hence the "-" in the stats box.

    So the card says "That unit must pass a morale test or its its attachments loose all abilities until the end of the round and it suffers D3 wounds"

    The result of a morale check is not 1. It passed 2. It did not pass but did not fail 3. it failed". It's it passes or it fails. No matter how you see it, the unit must roll dice to apply either results, otherwise it's in a weird lost cosmic void and you end up in a loop (it did not pass, it did not fail) forever, but let's continue.

    War machines don't make morale checks, they have a - as their stats"

    Rulebook page 20:

    Many effects will call for a unit to make a Morale Test. When a unit makes a Morale Test, it rolls 2 dice. If the combined result is equal to or higher than the unit’s Morale Stat, they have passed the test.

    You could loose a lot of time trying to figure out if the combined result of the dice is equal to or higher than "-". One could say that there is absolutely nothing to determine if it passed, or that every result is greater than nothing.

    Now notice the words at the very beginning. "When a unit makes a morale test...it rolls 2 dice....then you check the results. Night's watch player might take a higher-than-thou voice and say "NAY" right at the beginning of that paragraph.

    War machines do not make morale tests. So while you might want to continue and see that it didn't pass...the way i see it, you don't even get there.
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 12-06-2019 at 06:01 PM.

  10. #10

    Default

    Exactly, War Machines don't make morale tests. But Paid Mutiny doesn't require the targeted unit to make a morale test to affect it. It gives a morale check, and if that check is passed, nothing happened. A War Machine can't make that check at all so it can't pass. It's true that it can't fail the check, but that doesn't matter. The wording of Paid Mutiny is "That unit must pass a Morale Test or its Attachments loses all Abilities until the end of the round and that unit suffers D3 Wounds." Nothing about failing. It is not required that the test be failed. It is only required that the test is not passed. Since there is no test it is neither passed nor failed so it is not passed.

  11. #11

    Default

    RAW mech is right here, in regards to Paid Mutany.

    Mutany requires a test to be passed to avoid the negatives. This is contrary to pretty much every other "morale card" I could find which lists the effects "when failed". I do think this might be an oversight, but again, by RAW it is 100% how it would work.

    Not being able to do something doesn't make you except from it, it makes you except from being able to the Pass/Fail condition.

  12. #12

    Default

    If that's the case, then it's one of the most botched rule writing i've ever seen...as it implies that there is a void existing around the "pass and fail" condition, yet that is outside the context of a morale check.
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 12-07-2019 at 07:21 AM.

  13. #13

    Default

    I think you have to think about the word 'or'. You ignore it

  14. #14

    Default

    To me, the "or" means "if it fails", because that's the only other option within the context of a morale check....at least as far as i can see in the rulebook.

    Edited, they fixed the Castle Walls issue.

    By the way i should have quoted it earlier, but please check the FAQ

    PAID MUTINY

    Q: Is the “…and that unit suffers D3 Wounds” reliant on the unit failing their Morale Test, or does it just happen?

    A: The entire effect only happens if the enemy unit fails their Morale Test,this includes the D3 Wound



    So...since the War Machine unit cannot fail the test, it does not suffer the card's effect. I hope this solves the issue.
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 12-07-2019 at 07:59 AM.

  15. #15

    Default

    Don't know why but when i try to search anything on the site it doesn't work... can you put a link that points to the faq pliz thx

  16. #16

  17. #17

    Default

    the question is : what is the consequence of failing : loosing ability or loosing ability AND taking wounds.

    when you write "for me 'or' means 'if it fails'" this is the problem. You rewrite the card. The word 'or' is the word 'or'. It means either A or B. But if a member a CMON rewrites or completes or changes the text I'll agree

  18. #18

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Oakwolf View Post
    To me, the "or" means "if it fails", because that's the only other option within the context of a morale check....at least as far as i can see in the rulebook.

    Edited, they fixed the Castle Walls issue.

    By the way i should have quoted it earlier, but please check the FAQ

    PAID MUTINY

    Q: Is the “…and that unit suffers D3 Wounds” reliant on the unit failing their Morale Test, or does it just happen?

    A: The entire effect only happens if the enemy unit fails their Morale Test,this includes the D3 Wound



    So...since the War Machine unit cannot fail the test, it does not suffer the card's effect. I hope this solves the issue.
    This question is clearly whether or not passing the morale test negates the d3 wounds, which it does. The answer seems to assume that the test will assuredly happen which is strange because the Builder Scorpion Crew had been released at the time this question was added to the FAQ. The wording does put the RAW interpretation into doubt but I don't think it can be used to conclude definitively that War Machines are not affected by Paid Mutiny.

  19. #19

    Default

    To each their own then, but to me the FAQ clearly, without doubt, imply that the entire effect of the card depends on a morale test actually being made, and since this requirement cannot be met by War Machines, i just don't see a wiggle room for interpretation here. I doubt i can add more to this thread since obviously, we won't reach a common understanding. In the end as long as the players you're around agree with a consensus, then it's fine.
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 12-07-2019 at 05:54 PM.

  20. #20

    Default

    The question is about failing so it suggest the answer.

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