1.5 Ranged Attack & Shift
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Thread: 1.5 Ranged Attack & Shift

  1. #1

    Question 1.5 Ranged Attack & Shift

    Ranged Attack (rulebook 1.5, p14):
    • Ranged Attacks may not be performed while engaged.
    • A unit must have a Ranged Attack, and a viable target within their maximum range (including after their shift, see below).
    • When a unit performs a Ranged Attack, it may first shift up to 2”, so long as, at the end of that shift, a viable target is still within their maximum range and Line of Sight.
    • Once this shift is completed, the unit will then select 1 enemy unit in Line of Sight and within range of its Ranged Attack and resolve an attack against that enemy (see Resolving Attacks, pg. 17).

    If my understanding is correct, you now have to follow the steps below :
    1) you can declare a ranged attack if you have a valid target,
    2) In this case you can shift as long as you stay within range and in view of a valid target,
    3) You can make your ranged attack (to any valid target at range).

    - So you can't use free attack to move 2" anymore,
    - You can't use shift to move at range when you start at, for example, 13" ou 14" from your target,
    - But you can do the 2 points above if other ennemi units (not your target) are at range & in view (this point is nonsense for me...),
    - You can't use nimble to move more than 12" from the charging unit (with NW crossbows & Pipar).

    Please tell me if my understanding is ok, or not

  2. #2

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    - So you can't use free attack to move 2" anymore,

    Correct, unless you also have an actual target to attack.

    - You can't use shift to move at range when you start at, for example, 13" ou 14" from your target,
    Incorrect. It specifies that you have to have a target within maximum range, INCLUDING AFTER their shift.


    - But you can do the 2 points above if other ennemi units (not your target) are at range & in view (this point is nonsense for me...),

    You only declare target after your shift, and you do not have the option to "not attack".
    - You can't use nimble to move more than 12" from the charging unit (with NW crossbows & Pipar).

    The second shift from Nimble allows you to move out of range. Keeping in range of a target is only an added restriction for Shifts allowed by Ranged Attacks, not Shifts in general, which are defined on Pg. 5.

  3. #3

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    Thank for your answer !
    So the only change with 1.5 is that shift don't allowed a "free" move without ennemy at range anymore. It's not a nerf for the NW crossbowmen & Pypar at all...

  4. #4

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    Side comment, what Alliser says above to my knowledge logical and correct.


    Just to bring the rationale, why I fear this (incorrect) interpretation is going to be common question / confusion to many.

    Official errata states following:
    - PG. 14: ERRATA: Unit must maintain a valid target after Shifting as part of a Ranged Attack.
    Issue: use of word "maintain". To maintain something, it had to be there to begin with (e.g. you had to have unit in range pre-shift, and must maintain that situation post-shift).

    Rule book states following (page 14):
    • A unit must have a Ranged Attack, and a viable target within their maximum range (including after their shift, see below).
    • When a unit performs a Ranged Attack, it may first shift up to 2”, so long as, at the end of that shift, a viable target is still within their maximum range and Line of Sight.

    Issue: use of word "still". To still have something, it had to be there to begin with (e.g. you had to have unit in range pre-shift, and must still have that situation post-shift).
    Issue: The "including after their shift" can be interpreted that you have to have this situation pre-shift, and including post-shift.
    Issue: It says "viable target within their maximum range". Maximum range does not include shift, only the shooting range.

    Rule book on definition of "Maximum range". it is the shooting range without the shift (page 15 top):
    • Checking Range •
    • All Ranged Attacks list whether they are Short Range or Long Range. Short Range attacks have a maximum targeting range of 6”. Long Range attacks have a maximum targeting range of 12”.
    • To determine whether a unit is in range, place the ruler in contact with the Front Arrow/center of the attacker’s front arc and measure to any part of the target’s tray. If any part of their tray is within the maximum range of that attack, that enemy may be targeted (assuming they are in Line of Sight).



    If we would delete below [red colored] parts of the rules, everything would remain as is with lesser confusion, assuming rules are meant to be like Alliser says:

    • A unit must have a Ranged Attack[, and a viable target within their maximum range (including after their shift, see below)].
    • When a unit performs a Ranged Attack, it may first shift up to 2”, so long as, at the end of that shift, a viable target is [still] within their maximum range and Line of Sight.

    The extra information in the 1st bullet above brings no value, if the intent is that no viable target is needed within maximum range pre-shift. Second bullet point takes care of that, that post-shift there must be a target (and even in LoS, which the 1st bullet does not mention). The bullet points could be combined, in case there is a worry that there is a risk of players making illegal moves and noticing it too late (if the bullet point that defines the legality is too late in the action).

  5. #5

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    I agree, the new formulation seem a bit confusing to me (especially that english is not my mother language).

  6. #6

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    It is simple
    You cannot make 2" move if you don't shoot.

  7. #7

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    I have to say that if you can’t use the shift to get into range (7” and 13” positioning is very useful for shooters) then it seems pointless as the best you could do with it is bring another unit into LOS, but you needed another unit in range and LOS in the first place.

    I suppose you can use it to pull back from a unit that is already within range?

    As an NW player Pypar can still move 3” after shooting but I’m not sure I’ll be taking him at 2pts if an FAQ doesn’t allow shooting units to shift into range.

    It seems like a small advantage has now been broken such that if it was removed from the rules altogether I doubt anyone would notice?

    Joken
    Last edited by Joken; 12-21-2019 at 01:53 AM.
    No easy dice role too difficult......

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joken View Post
    I have to say that if you can’t use the shift to get into range (7” and 13” positioning is very useful for shooters) then it seems pointless as the best you could do with it is bring another unit into LOS, but you needed another unit in range and LOS in the first place.

    I suppose you can use it to pull back from a unit that is within you range?

    As an NW player Pypar can still move 3” after shooting but I’m not sure I’ll be taking him at 2pts if an FAQ doesn’t allow shooting units to shift into range.

    It seems like a small advantage has now bee broken such that if it was removed from the rules altogether I doubt anyone would notice?

    Joken
    You seem to be reading the opposite consensus of what everyone else is saying- you absolutely CAN use Shift to move into range, as evident by the " so long as, at the end of that shift, a viable target is still within their maximum range and Line of Sight." line.



  9. #9

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    The consensus is one thing.

    Can we have an official answer please ?

  10. #10

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    on what question?

    i dont see any problem with that topic in rules

  11. #11

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    This really needs an answer. While shifting to be in range to attack has been allowed forever, people across the internet are now arguing that in 1.5 you cannot shift into range and attack. Because the word still now appears in the rules, they are arguing that you have to start with a target in range. They then assert that the image where it shows a
    unit of bowmen 13 away as out of range of further evidence that you cannot shift into range and attack


    to me it’s clear. Bullet 2 under ranged attack says a target must be in range “including after their shift” is lost on them. I’m tired of arguing against a vocal group of trolls. A simple yes you can shift into range to attack would be great.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaporego View Post
    This really needs an answer. While shifting to be in range to attack has been allowed forever, people across the internet are now arguing that in 1.5 you cannot shift into range and attack. Because the word still now appears in the rules, they are arguing that you have to start with a target in range. They then assert that the image where it shows a
    unit of bowmen 13 away as out of range of further evidence that you cannot shift into range and attack


    to me it’s clear. Bullet 2 under ranged attack says a target must be in range “including after their shift” is lost on them. I’m tired of arguing against a vocal group of trolls. A simple yes you can shift into range to attack would be great.
    Rational and detailed explanations have been laid out above. If you're speaking with someone who wants to keep arguing, then they're doing it for the sake of it. This is how it has functioned since Day 1, it has never changed, nor has anything even pointed towards that direction.

    Each and every time a game-rule has been modified, it's been specifically laid out. 1.4 to 1.5 lists all the changes and what they do. It has this to say in regards to Ranged Attacks and Shifting:

    PG. 14: ERRATA: Unit must maintain a valid target after Shifting aspart of a Ranged Attack.

    That's it. Unless their argument is "You have NEVER been able to Shift into range" (which is grossly incorrect) then they are trying to apply some sort of "stealth change" that, unlike every other rules change, wasn't expressly called out, defined, or noted.

  13. #13

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    I believe there are some players who fall into the "rules lawyer" category who won't bow to the consensus of popular opinion because they don't have the imprimatur of the high court (CMON, in this instance).

    It might help if certain folks who have proven to be knowledgeable might receive a knighting (to mix metaphors) so that their rational presentation of the facts wasn't branded "fake news" (to frappe metaphors further).

    Absent that, I think players will have to cope with consensus via the hivemind either here or the discord. Otherwise, as Alliser might opine, you should just make your own rules and play by those.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

  14. #14

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    I’d love it if Shinall would clarify so I don’t have to hear this Jano joker go on and on his high horse about his incorrect interpretation. Shinall, can you shift into range? Please clarify for us.

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by serbaelish View Post
    I believe there are some players who fall into the "rules lawyer" category who won't bow to the consensus of popular opinion because they don't have the imprimatur of the high court (CMON, in this instance).

    It might help if certain folks who have proven to be knowledgeable might receive a knighting (to mix metaphors) so that their rational presentation of the facts wasn't branded "fake news" (to frappe metaphors further).

    Absent that, I think players will have to cope with consensus via the hivemind either here or the discord. Otherwise, as Alliser might opine, you should just make your own rules and play by those.
    I agree. There are too many people that will only take input from a designer or “official” source, even if they are literally the only person that believes what they do.

    It’s been a while since Michael made an appearance here, and I’m sure he has lots to do besides answer questions be feels have already been handled here. I think it’d be great if we had our own Mod and/or designated trusted sources for those looking for “official” responses.
    House - Ravenhurst
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    Words - “We do not Highlight”

  16. #16

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    The only thing in v1.5 that changed as far as Shifting and Ranged Attacks are concerned was you must be able to perform a legal Ranged Attack after Shifting, whereas previously you could Shift without making an Attack. That is the only rules modification.

    You have always been able to, and continue to be able to, Shift from outside maximum range into maximum range and then make a Ranged Attack, so long as, after Shifting, you have a valid target.
    Designer and Senior Developer
    A Song of Ice and Fire, Dark Age, Rum & Bones, World of SMOG: Rise of Moloch, Wrath of Kings, Xenoshyft

  17. #17

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    Thank for the clear answer M. Shinall !
    But I am not part of the skepticals, I was convinced since the first "non official" answer to my topic ^^

  18. #18

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    Thanks for the clarification. One follow up question: When is the attack declared, for purposes of orders or tactics that trigger off an attack being declared? Is it before the shift or after?

  19. #19

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    From my understanding, you have to declare the ranged attack in order to be able to Shift. So that declaration would come first. However, the Simultainious Actions Rule should let you decide the order some effects resolve in, depending on how the trigger is worded. In case Shifting would make or break it working.
    House - Ravenhurst
    Sigil - Black raven on a copper field, clutching paintbrushes
    Words - “We do not Highlight”

  20. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlxRaven View Post
    From my understanding, you have to declare the ranged attack in order to be able to Shift. So that declaration would come first. However, the Simultainious Actions Rule should let you decide the order some effects resolve in, depending on how the trigger is worded. In case Shifting would make or break it working.
    To tack on to that, once the unit has shifted, you have moved past the “declare” stage in terms of timing.
    "I did warn you not to trust me." -Littlefinger

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