Varys IaS and NCU abilities that trigger on activation
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Thread: Varys IaS and NCU abilities that trigger on activation

  1. #1

    Default Varys IaS and NCU abilities that trigger on activation

    Given Melisandre's spoiler yesterday and the fact that Tyrion NCU has an ability which triggers when that NCU activates, how does this interact with the new timing for Varys and the existing timing of intrigue and subterfuge. Can Varys/Intrigue and Subterfuge stop the resolution of an NCUs activation ability?

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nighteyes001 View Post
    Given Melisandre's spoiler yesterday and the fact that Tyrion NCU has an ability which triggers when that NCU activates, how does this interact with the new timing for Varys and the existing timing of intrigue and subterfuge. Can Varys/Intrigue and Subterfuge stop the resolution of an NCUs activation ability?
    nopes

    first you resolve the active player therefore melissandre goes first then you switch her off but at that point it s too late
    Triple F.

    Fight F@k Fight

  3. #3

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    Melisandre's player will be the active player when she activates, so Sacrifice to the Lord of Light will activate before anything the opponent does in that same window. This prevents her effect from being stopped by Varys or Intrigue and Subterfuge.

  4. #4

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    I think the question still needs an official answer as that same logic should have applied to Varys pre 1.5 and yet there was a FAQ stating that he could interrupt. I know he's been re-written to a different trigger now but it sure would be good to get an answer from Shinall to know for sure.
    Last edited by crimeanmech; 01-31-2020 at 07:43 PM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by crimeanmech View Post
    I think the question still needs an official answer as that same logic should have applied to Varys pre 1.5 and yet there was a FAQ stating that he could interrupt. I know he's been re-written to a different trigger now but it sure would be good to get an answer from Shinall to know for sure.
    Fully agreed. It is very strange that this NCU by-passes all effects that can negate its effect leaving no counterplay against it.
    What is dead may never die, but rises again Harder and Stronger

  6. #6

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    Gameplay wise, I agree. But thematically, there was no counterplay to it in the books besides not using her.
    House - Ravenhurst
    Sigil - Black raven on a copper field, clutching paintbrushes
    Words - “We do not Highlight”

  7. #7

  8. #8

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    OK, call me thick if you will, but I don't get it...

    Vary's ability states "When an enemy NCU Activates...."

    So surely when Melisandre activates, then Vary's can use his ability...

    What am I missing?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevlinBrightblade View Post
    OK, call me thick if you will, but I don't get it...

    Vary's ability states "When an enemy NCU Activates...."

    So surely when Melisandre activates, then Vary's can use his ability...

    What am I missing?
    Actually, nothing. You are correct, Varys can use his ability when Mel activates.

    However, the trigger for Mel's ability also occurrs when she activates, so the trigger for her ability and varys cancel ability is the same, simultaneous if you will. Therefore due to the rule of simultaneous action, the active player, in this case Melisandra, gets to resolve their ability first, and THEN varys can activate his little birds. However, before those birds get a chance to fly, Mel's already done her panic ability, so functionally she is immune to Varys (and intrigue and subterfuge) from blanking her ability. Varys can still use his ability to blank the zone she claims, but he can functionally do nothing to stop her ability, since tlby the time he is able to, she's already done it!

    In summary

    1.Mel is chosen to activate
    2.Mel and Varys trigger occur
    2a. Activate player Mel resolves ability first
    2b. Then inactive player Varys resolves their ability second

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codfather View Post
    Actually, nothing. You are correct, Varys can use his ability when Mel activates.

    However, the trigger for Mel's ability also occurrs when she activates, so the trigger for her ability and varys cancel ability is the same, simultaneous if you will. Therefore due to the rule of simultaneous action, the active player, in this case Melisandra, gets to resolve their ability first, and THEN varys can activate his little birds. However, before those birds get a chance to fly, Mel's already done her panic ability, so functionally she is immune to Varys (and intrigue and subterfuge) from blanking her ability. Varys can still use his ability to blank the zone she claims, but he can functionally do nothing to stop her ability, since tlby the time he is able to, she's already done it!

    In summary

    1.Mel is chosen to activate
    2.Mel and Varys trigger occur
    2a. Activate player Mel resolves ability first
    2b. Then inactive player Varys resolves their ability second
    So it about the wording on the card then?

    Take Shrya for example when she activates and claims a zone on the board she can do something, so why does Varys cancel her ability, isn't this a simultaneous action?

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by DevlinBrightblade View Post
    So it about the wording on the card then?

    Take Shrya for example when she activates and claims a zone on the board she can do something, so why does Varys cancel her ability, isn't this a simultaneous action?
    If you read shyra ability, It comes into play when she CLAIMS a zone which happens after she activates. New Varys triggers when an NCU activates, so he can blank her before she claims a zone and would able to resolve her ability (this is different from old varys which triggered upon an NCU claiming a zone, which also required some time travel to work at all, but that's a different discussion).

    This is different from Mel whose ability happens upon activation, which is the same trigger as varys

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codfather View Post
    If you read shyra ability, It comes into play when she CLAIMS a zone which happens after she activates. New Varys triggers when an NCU activates, so he can blank her before she claims a zone and would able to resolve her ability (this is different from old varys which triggered upon an NCU claiming a zone, which also required some time travel to work at all, but that's a different discussion).

    This is different from Mel whose ability happens upon activation, which is the same trigger as varys
    Aha.. the light bulb has just gone off... Thanks for taking the time to explain it..

  13. #13

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    Hi, she IS op? YES, reason:

    The last day i play she kills with 2 panics test 1 unit of 8 points, she takes the bag when she activates and in turn 2 she do the same, so she lose 0 wounds and i lose 12 GG WP and 0 strategy only combo with 1 miniature of 5 points.

    Another reason, she is unstopable she take 0 wounds if she take bag or Any other action with a free destruction of tour units and if the enwmy play roose comander you can say good bye.

    Ah and hoy can play tycho and take less wounds
    Last edited by BaelStarkgaryen; 05-12-2020 at 01:45 PM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaelStarkgaryen View Post
    Hi, she IS op? YES, reason:

    The last day i play she kills with 2 panics test 1 unit of 8 points, she takes the bag when she activates and in turn 2 she do the same, so she lose 0 wounds and i lose 12 GG WP and 0 strategy only combo with 1 miniature of 5 points.

    Another reason, she is unstopable she take 0 wounds if she take bag or Any other action with a free destruction of tour units and if the enwmy play roose comander you can say good bye.

    Ah and hoy can play tycho and take less wounds
    So two rounds, one of which you could have blocked her, but didn't.

    Then the opponent failed their Panic Test roll, and you rolled a 3 on all tests, and they strategied by taking bags, and played into her strength with Roose, meaning they also set up that strategy by utilizing his Panic.

    So your opponent made a plan, set up the pieces for that plan, executed that plan without being stopped or waylayed, and it worked.

    And that's OP. Gotcha.

    Let's flip the situation over, since we seem to want to look at max potential and only when things work out for opponent.

    I took Mel, my opponent was running Umbers and Stalwart, everything in his army had a 2/3+ Morale, so even with - 3 he was passing on 6+ on average. Sactified six wounds to deal zero.

    Then, when he finally did fail, rolled a 1 for Panic wounds and only caused five. At this point I had dealt nine wounds to myself and had to Tycho up the unit. So my nine point investment, over three rounds, dealt a total of five wounds.

    What sense does it make to go "This unit is OP if I also include a specific Commander, another 4 point NCU, my rolls always being 3s, my opponent never passing a test and also allowing me to always take the zone that I want and not countering by taking Combat/Maneuver."

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    So two rounds, one of which you could have blocked her, but didn't.

    Then the opponent failed their Panic Test roll, and you rolled a 3 on all tests, and they strategied by taking bags, and played into her strength with Roose, meaning they also set up that strategy by utilizing his Panic.

    So your opponent made a plan, set up the pieces for that plan, executed that plan without being stopped or waylayed, and it worked.

    And that's OP. Gotcha.

    Let's flip the situation over, since we seem to want to look at max potential and only when things work out for opponent.

    I took Mel, my opponent was running Umbers and Stalwart, everything in his army had a 2/3+ Morale, so even with - 3 he was passing on 6+ on average. Sactified six wounds to deal zero.

    Then, when he finally did fail, rolled a 1 for Panic wounds and only caused five. At this point I had dealt nine wounds to myself and had to Tycho up the unit. So my nine point investment, over three rounds, dealt a total of five wounds.

    What sense does it make to go "This unit is OP if I also include a specific Commander, another 4 point NCU, my rolls always being 3s, my opponent never passing a test and also allowing me to always take the zone that I want and not countering by taking Combat/Maneuver."
    1.In a tournament you Will play an army (2list) and only Will know your rival in the pairing moment, so you can't prepare an army to figth vs all people if you do that.

    2. The cost of all of your units is 9 with your idea if only play berserks and 7 with Stark swords, she dump your moral from 5 to 8 so you can fail easy and if you are near to a corpse pile + a panic token its veeery easy lose 7 wounds.

    3. I never see a list out of Stark army with all moral of 4+ and more than 6 activations and high presence in the table.

    I think is op, yes, its my opinion and i want a Nerf because is a NCU Who needs 0 skill and strategy and with activaction or simple combo you can win very easy. I LOVE this Game and i Hope the Game dosen't turn a 1unit destroy all with out strategy
    Last edited by BaelStarkgaryen; 05-12-2020 at 04:41 PM.

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