Unsullied Swordmasters leaked Photo
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Thread: Unsullied Swordmasters leaked Photo

  1. #1

    Default Unsullied Swordmasters leaked Photo

    Anyone has seen that ridiculous leaked photo of the Unsullied Swordmasters and attachment card laying on a painting palette? That better be fake because the attack stats are so ridiculous that it will become nerfed quicky. And people thought the Flayed Men were bad. We're talking 2+ at 10, 7, 6!!! 6spd, 4+def, 4+mrl which I can agree on except speed should maybe be 5, my opinion. And they have a Precision ability. So yep, these guys are OP as f*** .

  2. #2

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    Its a 9 point unit with a 3 points attachment, over 1/4 of your entire army, and needs to do the same leg-work as two Six Point units to even gain its points back.

    Meanwhile compare with Mountain's Men + Gregor at same cost, who have Critical Blow, Sundering, Vicious, a better Attack Die profile, and the Ability to auto-roll a 6 on Charges.

    Yes, truly OP.

    I must also ask how many times you've actually fielded them to come to such a conclusion in the five hours since the card has been out?

  3. #3

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    Aye, they look to be pretty powerful. Sure they may be expensive, but they'll most certainly be instrumental in a resounding victory for the Targaryen player. I think that SP6 with a 4+ save is a bit much, seeing as Freefolk Raiders with a save of 5+ are SP5, and other heavily armoured (3+ save) are SP4.

    I'm willing to bet it is a fake, due to the SP and armour values looking to be out of keeping with what I have seen so far.
    The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    I must also ask how many times you've actually fielded them to come to such a conclusion in the five hours since the card has been out?
    And how many times have you fielded them to say that he’s wrong?

    It’s a daunting unit, particularly because at 9 points it’s aggressively costed. When you look at Stag Knights, Rhllor Faithful, revised Flayed Men, and Mummer Skirmishers, CMON seemed to be erring towards more conservative (higher) unit pricing. Then you look at the combined profile versus the cost of the Unsullied Swordmasters, and they buck that trend significantly. Will it be game-breaking? It’s too early to say. Is it eyebrow raising? Absolutely.
    Last edited by SkaerKrow; 03-15-2020 at 01:05 AM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    Yes, truly OP.

    I must also ask how many times you've actually fielded them to come to such a conclusion in the five hours since the card has been out?
    Prick much? Bite me.

    I'm using my own reasoning between how the Great Axes and 10 point Flayed Men were treated. And I'm seeing these guys going the same direction, but not before a bunch of bewildered Targ players stock up on them first.

    Oh and yeah being impervious to condition tokens at 9 points with EVERYTHING ELSE going for them totally makes them OP that even a blind man can see it. I see why now you chose the prick of the Night's Watch as your user name.
    Last edited by sacrilege83; 03-14-2020 at 11:59 PM.

  6. #6

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    9pt unit with a 4+ save in a faction with little healing or defensive tech seems fine.

    Yes, they're good, but I don't think they're unbelievably OP.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkaerKrow View Post
    And how many times have you fielded them to say that he’s wrong?
    It’s a daunting unit, particularly because at 9 points it’s aggressively costed. When you look at Stag Knights, Rhllor Faithful, revised Flayed Men, and Mummer Skirmishers, CMON seemed to be erring towards more conservative (higher) unit pricing. Then you look at the combined profile versus the cost of the Unsullied Swordmasters, and they buck that trend significantly. Will it be game-breaking? It’s too early to say. Is it eyebrow raising? Absolutely.
    Actully Allister does not says that he is wrong.

    For me brow raising is stats of Stag, Mummer etc. Targaryen is just unit in 4+ armor. And its attach is clearly balanced for 3 pts.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valenae View Post
    Actully Allister does not says that he is wrong.

    For me brow raising is stats of Stag, Mummer etc. Targaryen is just unit in 4+ armor. And its attach is clearly balanced for 3 pts.
    He actually implied that very thing? But whatever. I’m not going to argue semantics with you.

    As I said, it’s too early to know if the unit is broken or not. That said, picking the one mediocre stat that they have and trying to use that to completely downplay the rest of their rather exceptional profile seems a bit questionable.

  9. #9

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    I mean, what else can one say? They seem good but not unbeatable to me.
    Given none of us have used them nor played against them, all we can do is gnash our teeth and wail at the unfairness of it all, or try to think of ways to manage them/use them to the best effect.

    Are they really that much better than Berserkers with an Umber Champ, which are a point less? Obviously both units have their strengths and weaknesses, but there are plenty of units in the game that scare me just as much as these guys do.

  10. #10

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    Their +4 armour is their only vulnerability that I see, which isn't so vulnerable to begin with, and with fast cav units you know their flanks will be well protected.

  11. #11

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    Wow just checked out that unit card every thing seems ok 4+ save and moral 6 movement but the 10 dice on 2+ with 6 giving no save and no condition tokens so you can never weaken that attack seems alittle op that's if the card is not bs. But if OP I'm sure cmon will sort the issue.

  12. #12

  13. #13

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    I think unfortunately since people already have the miniatures that this stat card is final.

    That said, I don't see a huge problem with the current Unsullied. Uber units tend to be the Targaryen's shtick, and if you invest 9 (or 12) points then it should absolutely be a monster of a unit. Movement 6 is good, and movement 7 with Dany can be problematic for sure but they're still rather slow in that, unlike a lot of cav units, their movement is either one of a 6-7" maneuver or a straight line 12-14" march. Though their charge range is still 12-13", it is still one unit. One unit that, like the other Targaryen uber unit, can be made pretty useless by Frey. Yes, 10 dice hitting on 2s is still good, but if you Frey the Unsullied and then hit them with vulnerable and any decent assault unit they're liable to fall apart. Frey shuts off their Precision, their Unyielding, and turns off their wonderful Officer ability which mitigates their ability to swing so many times in a turn and get the most mileage out of them. It's set-up intensive, but not terribly difficult to execute and if the Targaryen player has Varys that's anywhere from 13 to 16 points invested in keeping this unit functional.

    On top of that, you have to consider board presence. If you put these guys in your list, you're limiting yourself to at most 4 combat drops (potentially less if you take the officer and want more NCUs). This 9/12 point unit has to accomplish what 2-3 other combat units would be able to accomplish with a fraction of the board presence. You cannot afford to mess up with these guys, because if you do the game is over. They can only ever be on one objective. They can only ever threaten one portion of the board. They can't plant themselves way outside of charge range and always set the engagement on their terms. Yes, between Hit and Runs and the Horses and movement buffs they can be quite mobile but they cannot run the length of the board in a single turn like the rest of the Dothraki cav can, and in doing so they waste time that could otherwise be spent getting stuck in and attacking 2-3 times in a turn.

    So yes, this is a very, very nasty and capable unit but the state of the game as-is doesn't encourage very nasty, very capable units on par with the Unsullied price tag. It encourages middling quality units ranging 4-7 points (typically) that can grab objectives and survive long enough to score points and kill a few things while they're still around. In kill-oriented missions, these guys might see some real use (especially Fire and Blood, though your opponent would have to be rather dense to put the mark on the Unsullied) but overall the Unsullied seem to be emblematic of the Targaryen problem overall - with limited board presence, and relatively squishy units you either table your opponent or lose. So yeah, if they were in any other faction I might worry but in the context of Targaryens they're nothing to panic over.

  14. #14

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    I wouldn't have minded if they would be tied to Grey Worm as commander, bit like the King's Guard is tied to Joffrey when he steps on the battlefield...but i find it odd to believe that all Unsullied troops with swords behave like that, whatever the price.

    What makes the unsullied so great is their discipline...so i can definitely understand a resistance to condition and having a tremendous morale. What i can't understand is how much destruction they can do...10 dice at 2+ with precision will create more casualties than many cavalry charges...which makes no sense at all considering the sacrifice that those lance units pay for. Besides, they were described as being physically less potent than fully grown men (being eunuqs).

    If you look at Flayed Men's new and improved card(sic)...and this (both costing 9pts), it makes 0 sense, and before people say "play them first"...we've been played long enough to have an idea of what those stats mean on the table.

  15. #15

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    lets count.
    average save is 4+
    so if unsuillied attacks they will deilver about 4.65 wounds. this is only one rank of Stark Swordsmans for example.

    when you charge with lannisters cavalary you will deliver 5.04 wounds (assuming that you dont get rerolls for charge)

    even simple Stark Swordsman when use its ability deliver 3,45 wounds!

    10 2+ attack is nothing special...

  16. #16

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    We improve the hit rate by 50% going from a 3+ to a 2+ (66% hit rate to 83%). It's significant.

    10 Dice at 2+ is about 14 dice at 3+...that's huge, and that's how i compare it to other units. Of course this doesn't take Precision into account (more dice is always better for that and Critical Blow), but still.

    When flayed men lost their 2+ to a 3+, that's exactly what happened...loosing 50% of their resilience, and that was quite special to me.

    Simple stark swordsmen happen to be one of the better offensive units for their cost, just saying. Take Stormcrow mercenaries for a comparison. Comparing outside of faction is difficult due to commanders, tactic cards and attachments, but neutrals can be taken by all so they are balanced for all cases.

    We value things differently, and that's fine too by the way, i am not saying you are wrong to see things your way: in the end we may not see much use for them? but from my point of view, we've seen units with lesser stats get some adjustments downward.
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 03-23-2020 at 05:58 PM.

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakwolf View Post
    I wouldn't have minded if they would be tied to Grey Worm as commander, bit like the King's Guard is tied to Joffrey when he steps on the battlefield...but i find it odd to believe that all Unsullied troops with swords behave like that, whatever the price.

    What makes the unsullied so great is their discipline...so i can definitely understand a resistance to condition and having a tremendous morale. What i can't understand is how much destruction they can do...10 dice at 2+ with precision will create more casualties than many cavalry charges...which makes no sense at all considering the sacrifice that those lance units pay for. Besides, they were described as being physically less potent than fully grown men (being eunuqs).

    If you look at Flayed Men's new and improved card(sic)...and this (both costing 9pts), it makes 0 sense, and before people say "play them first"...we've been played long enough to have an idea of what those stats mean on the table.
    I'm not quite sure comparing them to Flayed Men is fair, as Flayed Men are a neutral unit and cavalry to boot. They're going to pay more for the flexibility of an extra maneuver before their attack. On top of that, cross-faction comparison usually doesn't yield much in the way of insight to how a unit performs unless you look broad category to broad category (e.g. assault unit to assault unit, elite infantry to elite infantry).

    So, sticking with the category of super infantry/elite infantry - here's the Unsullied's competition, and most fair comparisons:

    Stag Knights. No questions here, they are vastly superior to Stag Knights - most 6/7 point units are, and Stag Knights have been beaten to death with the same stick over and over. No need for further analysis.

    Warrior Sons. So for 1 less point, you have same armor and morale stats and 1 less movement. Faith tokens are finnicky, and require some planning but they 1) get tougher as they die and 2) can dish out serious damage with their faith tokens situationally, before accounting for the wound restoration and other Lannister tricks that can make this unit a thorn to remove. It's also worth noting that this unit exists in a faction with 2 rather solid cheap activations with staying power in the form of Guardsmen and Poor Fellows, which Targaryens do not necessarily have in spades.

    Night's Watch Veterans. For 1 less point, 1 better armor save, 1 worse morale, and a pretty solid attack profile like Warrior Sons. Obviously cannot compete with 10 dice on 2s with Precision, but Veterans have the ability to get situationally powerful benefits from Vows (which can also last the whole game if needed) and counterattack makes the unit rather nasty as well, with the ability to essentially sustain themselves through the whole game with Jon and/or Maester Aemon. They also exist in a faction with cheap, durable activations and one of the best standard mainline infantry in the game - Sworn Brothers (perhaps less so after the point increase).

    Starks might not have a direct parallel, since their infantry units all come in 7 points or under but Greataxes seem the most appropriate. 2 points cheaper, ability to ignore armor saves, and lots of mobility tricks as well as a faction with the ability to drop lots of things on the board and cover lots of ground (wolves, crannogs, and sworn swords all rather cheap).

    Free Folk no real equivalent except Bonelord's Chosen, but that starts to get dicey with the rest of Free Folk and the fact that the commander is attached, or Rattleshirt is in there somewhere.


    All this to say that faction context is important. Yes, they do a fair number of wounds, charge or otherwise. Yes, they have the ability to activate several times. But they're still 1 unit, and again, that matters. They cannot be everywhere, and they're not cavalry so though they are rather fast at 6" or 7" of movement (pending Dany), their mobility is still rather limited and you can cancel a lot of their multi-activation stuff by smart use of retreating, just like you might to avoid and work around giants. In the context of Targaryens, a 9-12 point unit is an expensive decision to make, and if you catch the Unsullied off-guard and do not let them charge you, a lot of their oomph can be mitigated by denying a lot of the nastier Targaryen cards, and unless the Targaryens wipe their target in one swing they're liable to get locked down and die just like any other uber unit. And again, 12 points (because the officer is one of the biggest things that makes them so good) means your combat presence on the board is limited, and the number of NCUs you can take is hampered.

    Yes they're a good unit, no one is saying otherwise, but I really don't think they're broken in the context of Targaryens. A 9-12 point infantry unit should perform this well, because it's a 9-12 point infantry unit.

  18. #18

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    There's nothing broken entirely in this game...it might simply be a clash from my own vision of how unsullied should perform, after all, so it might be just me. I expected exceptionally strong morale and some form of condition resilience but i did not expect such offensive potential. They are stated as being smaller than normally grown men, as well...so i still assumed that Umber Berserkers would have a better attack profile. As for comparison with neutral units, that's actually the only possible "cross-faction" comparison we can safely do, because unlike any other faction, neutrals are actually balanced for -all- factions to include.
    Last edited by Oakwolf; 03-24-2020 at 06:29 AM.

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