Varys vs Melisandre
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Thread: Varys vs Melisandre

  1. #1

    Default Varys vs Melisandre

    Hello good day,

    Can Varys nullify Melisandre ability?

    Thank you

  2. #2

    Default

    Hey!

    Because they have the same trigger, the active player chooses to use their effect first. This would mean that Varys can't shut down her ability but can still cancel out her NCU zone effect.

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  3. #3

    Default

    Thank you Dittadean, I also read the answer here: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...read.php?68593

    Then Melisandre is unstoppable? (except for Olena in her rounds being first player, or Objective card that nullify any enemy Ncu in a few missions, if this card appears, and my enemy allows me to control this objective)

    In the rest of Missions and the rest of Factions I must suffer a panic Test with -3, suffering 5-7 wounds each round? (apart of additional panic tests of Crown zone, Walder, Axel Florent Ncu, etc)

    It seems to be broken for me, no counter possible and she alone usually anihilates one of my combat units each 2 rounds.. Ouch!
    Last edited by Greatjon_Umber; 05-12-2020 at 04:45 AM.

  4. #4

    Default

    The above answer is correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatjon_Umber View Post
    Thank you Dittadean, I also read the answer here: http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...read.php?68593

    Then Melisandre is unstoppable? (except for Olena in her rounds being first player, or Objective card that nullify any enemy Ncu in a few missions, if this card appears, and my enemy allows me to control this objective)

    In the rest of Missions and the rest of Factions I must suffer a panic Test with -3, suffering 5-7 wounds each round? (apart of additional panic tests of Crown zone, etc)

    It seems to be broken for me, no counter possible and she alone usually anihilates one of my combat units each 2 rounds.. Ouch!

    The counter is that she is reliant on pure die-rolls which can make her deal zero damage, and the fact that to cause the modifiers to begin with she is dealing wounds to her own unit. In your above example she dealt between 2-6 wounds to her own units and caused a test that could in turn have caused 0 wounds to the opponent, unless the Melisandre player is taking Moneybag each activation to mitigate this, in which case they are leaving other zones open. All this is in addition to her cost of 5, a full Combat Unit.

    Every faction, save Night's Watch (and even they do now with Jeor), also has methods to cull Panic Tests.

  5. #5

    Default

    Hello Alister thank you for your answer,

    So stannis Baratheon player expends 5 + 5 points in Melisandre + Wardens, and then the only hope for any enemy unit in the game with average morale of 7, is trying to take a double 5 or double 6 in panic tests?
    (16,66% of success accoarding this: https://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/te...p#.XrpfPmgzZPY)

    And then another panic test with -1 for the Crown, or Melisandre heals his own troops with Wealth, without any risk or auto-damage, and denying it at the same time. Fair deal
    Last edited by Greatjon_Umber; 05-12-2020 at 04:46 AM.

  6. #6

    Default

    I know this is the rules post but I'm with you great John. Alliser, I highly respect and appreciate your input but I have to disagree with you. The all or nothing approach makes sense if she didn't have the means to make herself more reliable.

    She comes off as a cheap stonethrower that is invincible. In two turns she can put out anywhere from 10-14 wounds with a standard 7+ unit having only 1/3 of the chance to at least negate part of this!

    Sure you lose 6 (or 0-3 with wealth zones) wardens. but they are already durable and take losses well. This is hardly a trade off for something so reliable effectective. Compared to a stonethrower, those 6 wounds are FAR better for objective play and general survivability and damage in combo with melisandre

    My mind went to the "counters" like the lannister guardsmen. then you realize that a lot of these things are one shot for the round or game. While it seems obvious that they directly counter her, they actually force a more complex game of her indirectly countering them. When having these 'counters' you have to decide when to auto-pass or wait for melissandre to do her 5-7 wounds. This could mean potentially not using some effects because of her shear presence. All the while combat panic losses set in that could've normally be saved. And that's if these tricks even have the chance to come in to save the day.

    Then there's Varys. I'm on the side that he's still OP. He can statistically render an NCU board moves useless for at least a third of a game. If not for the thwarting of any round plotting then the sheer fact that there's a negation of a valuable activation. I find that it's a drag though very game of thrones. At 4 points though? I bring this up because he is so WIDELY used and mellisandre straight up bypasses this meta.

    EVEN MORE SO Roose is a viable and competive commander to work with her. He's widely and successfully used and gels REAL well. He can shut down abilities that can auto pass, he remove a card that can cause an auto pass, and he even straight up dishes panic tokens which not only now make high morale units suddenly very vulnerable, but make two turn wipes entirely possible from a 5 point 'combat' unit that cannot be killed and requires no positioning.

    I'm am NOT an expert in tournament stuff by any means so I am not a great source to cite but I imagine that she'll be an auto pick (which I find kinda lame) and a source of frustration for many opponents of her. I'm sure there are a lot of things that can 'deal' with her but they are ultimately perceived in a vacuum where these things are not guaranteed but her effectiveness almost CERTAINLY is.

    My input? I wouldn't make her more expensive cuz baratheons seem to have cheap enough and durable enough units to deal with losses and/or less combat units on the table... It should just be unrealiabe. The greater the sacrifice the greater the damage and that's it. The players should have just as much of a struggle with making a decision to sacrifice as stannis would. It would feel more in flavor. But that's my two cents in a rules channel
    Last edited by Dittadean; 05-12-2020 at 05:42 AM.

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