After an attack is completed vs Unit destroyed triggers
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Thread: After an attack is completed vs Unit destroyed triggers

  1. #1

    Default After an attack is completed vs Unit destroyed triggers

    Hi

    In 1.5 are these the same trigger or no?
    Triple F.

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  2. #2

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    I have seen this officially enough answered, but couldn't find the source (sorry).

    They are separate triggers (have always been in all rule versions). Unit Destroyed happens inside Attack, thus trigger "destroyed" happens before trigger "after attack".



    I have seen this asked extremely often though, would definitely hit the category of "frequently asked question" (as in FAQ).

  3. #3

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    there was reply on Discord from Shinall but it was mid 2019 before that after the attack had a step of it s own.

    also Shinall said that only answers given here are to be considered official
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  4. #4

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    For example this card would make no sense if they are different triggers for you can not target something that you have destroyed in a previous step
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  5. #5

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    due to this ruling on overrun does it make it same step?

    trigger for overrun is unit destroyed if it s before the attack ends it wouldn t be viable on disorderly charge
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  6. #6

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    Destruction and After Attack are two distinct triggers. Things can be destroyed at various points throughout the game, including during an attack. (and of course, after something is destroyed during an attack... Said attack would then end... Distinctly after that thing was destroyed).

    Bazzu,

    Why would "Ours is the Fury" not make sense if they are separate triggers? Yes... The text "but not destroyed" is a little superfluous, but that's because people would try to use it after an attack that destroyed a unit if that text wasn't included. So, that text supports that they are different triggers.

    "Last Stand" is very similar. But triggers on destruction, and would occur before the end of the attack if said destruction occurred during an attack.

    Overrun. The image you posted is way too blurry for me to make out... Links to references work better.

    But Overrun has been known to have timing issues. Before v1.5, Surge Forth triggered on destruction of a unit and therefore would occur before the end of an attack (by RAW back then). Therefore Overrun while replacing Surge Forth, would cause a new charge and attack before the previous attack even ended... Which caused issues. So now, in v1.5, Surge Forth has been brute force ruled to occur after an attack (and after anything triggered after an attack). This solves so many issues that were occurring... And now it's only Overrun that is left a little messed up. It triggers during an attack (destroying something) but doesn't actually resolve until Surge Forth would occur.

    I imagine if they ever Errata the Tactics cards (something they've been reluctant to do) they would change Overrun to trigger "when a friendly unit would Surge Forth" or something of that nature.

  7. #7

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    http://www.coolminiornot.com/forums/...rdered-Charges

    Overrun is played when a unit is destroyed BUT can be played, as ruled by Shinall, even when you make a disorderly charge therefore that would make after an attack and unit destroyed to share same step

    the reasoning is that even though they are different triggers they however share the same step of the game forcing you to choose which one to trigger.

    if overrun was ruled that it couldn t be played during a disorderly charge then yes the timing would have been different but since it can be played then it means that the action is complete as soon as the unit is destroyed therefore sharing the same step of the game with after an attack is completed

    that s at least how I see it
    Triple F.

    Fight F@k Fight

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazzu View Post
    there was reply on Discord from Shinall but it was mid 2019 before that after the attack had a step of it s own.

    also Shinall said that only answers given here are to be considered official
    Just saying... you're admitting here that Michael Shinall has stated (on Discord) that "Destruction" and "After Attack" are two distinct triggers. But everything else you've said in this thread leads me to believe that you think they are the same trigger?

    Why?

    The only thing that changed in v1.5 in that area of the rules is that Surge Forth explicitly got called out to resolve after every other effect has resolved surrounding the attack. That does not do anything to change that "Destroyed" and "after attack" still remain two separate, distinct triggers.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelraek View Post
    Why?
    I can answer that (just a messenger, don't shoot).
    Shinall has himself said, that only CMON official site and this official CMON forum are to be considered official sources for rules. (So e.g. Him talking in discord is not official source).
    Then if you would read the link posted above, you would see that the answer given there, in this forum (in above link), contradicts that Discord information. Contradicting information, forum trumps discord.

    There are two ways to interpret Shinall's answer in that above linked post. Either:

    A) Destroyed and End of attack are simultaneous (or even more ridiculous, End of attack is before Destroyed)
    As according to that answer in above link, it is officially claimed that Overrun can be played in Disorderly charge. As we know, Overrun trigger is in destruction. Inability to play Tactics cards and Orders due to disorderly charge ends at the end of the action.
    Thus if (by official ruling in above link) Overrun can be played in Disorderly charge, the action (charge, and thus the attack of the charge) MUST be over at Destruction, when Overrun triggers.

    B) Shinall made a mistake in his reply in above link, and his answer there is wrong.
    This would mean that you cannot play Overrun in Disorderly charge (but it is officially said that you can).


    I'm voting on B, as you can notice from my recent question in the above given link.

  10. #10

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    I think there's a third option.

    C) The intended trigger is very poorly worded and is at Surge Forth. Notice Michael's post that you have referenced. He never actually acknowledges the trigger as being "destruction" as worded on the card. We do know without a shadow of a doubt that Overrun itself is actually resolved at the point that the unit would Surge Forth. Michael even specifically calls out that Surge Forth is in no way part of the attack sequence. It occurs outside the attack. And he stresses that right after mentioning that Overrun triggers outside the attack.

    Reading that post strongly gives the impression that Overrun triggers (paraphrasing) "after a unit had been destroyed, instead of maneuvering (as part of the Surge Forth)". I know it would be the worst worded trigger we have had to date, but we have had a few sketchy triggers.

    Anyways... I think that's an option too to interpret Michael's post.

    Either way. I'm still entirely adamant that "destruction" and "after attack" are distinct triggers.

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelraek View Post
    I think there's a third option.

    C) The intended trigger is very poorly worded and is at Surge Forth. Notice Michael's post that you have referenced. He never actually acknowledges the trigger as being "destruction" as worded on the card. We do know without a shadow of a doubt that Overrun itself is actually resolved at the point that the unit would Surge Forth. Michael even specifically calls out that Surge Forth is in no way part of the attack sequence. It occurs outside the attack. And he stresses that right after mentioning that Overrun triggers outside the attack.

    Reading that post strongly gives the impression that Overrun triggers (paraphrasing) "after a unit had been destroyed, instead of maneuvering (as part of the Surge Forth)". I know it would be the worst worded trigger we have had to date, but we have had a few sketchy triggers.

    Anyways... I think that's an option too to interpret Michael's post.

    Either way. I'm still entirely adamant that "destruction" and "after attack" are distinct triggers.
    The trigger is clearly when a unit is destroyed and is resolved there and then but
    it s effect is to change surge forth into a charge at a later step.

    we have seen this as well in ride by attack where the card is played when the unit activates and it is resolved by adding an action to the cavalry on that activation which is resolved at a later step after the free cav manoeuvre
    Triple F.

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  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazzu View Post
    The trigger is clearly when a unit is destroyed and is resolved there and then but
    it s effect is to change surge forth into a charge at a later step.

    we have seen this as well in ride by attack where the card is played when the unit activates and it is resolved by adding an action to the cavalry on that activation which is resolved at a later step after the free cav manoeuvre
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    Just saying... I think my "Option C" is seeming more and more likely.

    I get it... RAW was all messed up. But I think RAI was always for Overrun to trigger with Surge Forth.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelraek View Post
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    Just saying... I think my "Option C" is seeming more and more likely.

    I get it... RAW was all messed up. But I think RAI was always for Overrun to trigger with Surge Forth.
    I hope so at least it gets clear.
    We can t play internationally the same game based on intentions and interpretations.
    Triple F.

    Fight F@k Fight

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