Are Targaryen's being ignored?
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Thread: Are Targaryen's being ignored?

  1. #1

    Default Are Targaryen's being ignored?

    By my count the Targaryen starter box has been out now for about 10 months or so, yet there hasn't been anything done about some of the balance issues with the units.

    For example Jorah Mormont - The Wandering Knight at 3 points almost seems like it was an accidental misprint or something, easily the most terrible unit in the Targaryen army and from what I can tell in the game as a whole. Even if offered for free (0 points) I would question the logic of using him for anything more then an extra activation since there are so many things that can just kill him at will without any rolls. Putting him into your list is the equivalent of starting your opponent with 1 point.

    I mean he has worse stats then free units. You might make an argument for Scout Openings but seeing as you already get similar ability for 1 point with the Outrider KO which can actually survive in a unit of outriders to perform the ability, it seems crazy for this to be a reason to put him in the list. He is a terrible liability on his best day.

    Am I crazy?

    Then there is the Veterans, arguably one of the best Calvary units in the Targaryen army stat wise and certainly an argument can be made for them but at 10 points you have to question the logic of choosing them over a couple of screamers for 2 more points. Its a great unit but its just too expensive and there is no precedence anywhere else in the game for such a cost heavy unit. There are only 2 other units in the game at that price, the Builder Stone Throwers which from an asymmetrical stand point its difficult to compare. The closest thing you can sort of look at is the upcoming Champions of the Stag but even though its also a Calvary unit, realistically with a move of 4 what it essentially is, is a fast moving infantry unit, having both the benefits of Calvary and infantry and then some in the same unit. I mean this is a unit you are not going to try and flank with, its a hard hitting, heavy armored infantry on horseback suffering none of the disadvantages of a typical cavalry, they have a +2 defense save for crying out loud, they are a better infantry unit then most infantry units.

    Then there is the Screamers themselves, a generic Calvary that does nothing special until you add a KO, which in itself is not unbalanced, but it is rather boring given that this is really your only cheap option unless you go neutral to field something at a reasonable price, though I think I could make an argument for this unit costing 5 points as is, or at least make it adaptive so that you can put a KO in it for free. Strictly speaking why would use Screamers instead of Zorse Riders? Same costs, almost exactly the same stats, only difference is 1 morale for which you get 2 abilities (Motely Armaments and Disruption Tactics), a lopsided trade if there ever was one.

    I don't know how anyone else feels about it, but to me the Targaryen's while certainly fun to play, really don't offer much diversity or competition and most of their units have better or cheaper offerings in neutral units then their core units. Zorze Riders instead of screamers, Flayed Men instead of Veterans, even an argument could be made to use stormcrows over outriders since you can stick an unsullied officer on them for a much better ranged unit. Most scenarios do not favor an all Calvary faction and our ground force options start at a staggering 9 points unless you go neutral. Our solo is overpriced and would still be terrible if he were free, the veterans are way too over priced to justify, your kind of left with running screamers and outriders with various neutrals very favorably competing against them. Unsullied are the most interesting additions thus far but again like the Veteran they are so expensive that you really have to think long and hard if they will be able to earn their points at the table. Running 3 units of screamers and an outrider as a base for the Targaryen lists feels like the only sane thing to do if you want to at least give the appearance of being competitive.

    It seems to me that the Targaryens are suffering what I like to call designer expertise, where the designers of the game have played it so much and have gotten so good with it that they forget that most of us don't play often enough to reach the expertise required to run armies like Targaryens which I do believe even in their current form can be fairly competitive in the hands of an extremely skilled player, but I don't think that extreme expertise can be a balancing feature of an army, as skill being equal they still end up at the low end of the spectrum as a whole. Right now to me the Targaryens appear to be the weakest army by a fairly large margin, I'm yet to even see anyone win a game with them. I won one time by the skin of my teeth and largely by simply avoiding fighting all together and just running circles around my opponent scoring objectives.

    I'm sure more plays will reveal additional strategies and there is something to be said about the luck of the dice, but right now I feel like everything in the army is overpriced and underwhelming with neutral units out performing the core Targaryen units.

    Anyone else?
    Last edited by Bigfish2020; 10-21-2020 at 02:41 AM.

  2. #2

    Default

    WHat i also miss is point diversity.... why pikemen also 9 points and not adjust stats a bit and make them 8.... and why stimulating playing with 3 dragons.... its a ranked and file game, also the auto wounds should be limited.

    I guess targaryens miss about 3-4 points in a game to be more competetive

  3. #3

    Default

    My opinion

    I have 67% win rate with Targs in ours community
    And even won one Tournament.
    If you wish i will attend second tournament 25 oct. and make battle report.

    Totally agree about Mormont. His cost is too high. I will take it for 1 pts, and it will be must have for 0. But 3 pts - is too many.

    Veterans is not "best". Their battle stas very moderate for their cost. But their defense stats is VERY LOW for their cost. So it is second place after Mormont by my opinion.

    Screamer is medium unit. It is dont bad, but i will rather take anything else. NW ranger trackers is better than screamers in many times.

    Swordsman is very good unit. They have moderate stats and they dont overpower (if compare with it price). But good defence stats made them highly playble units.

    Outrider is very good unit. They ability to move 3 made them very versality for many missions.

    Bolton knights - good unit in Targs army as they lack heavy cavalary

    Stormcrow bowman - I testing them now. They perform well but I played only twice with them yet

    Pikeman - will be great units but i dont play with them yet. Preorder both.
    Zorse riders is very bad unit - i dont think they better than Screamers. But just in theory. I done play with them and dont consider to do it.

    Most time I played with Mormont (win rate 72%) and Worm (win rate 80%)
    Now I testing Barristan (wr 80%).
    I dont play Drogo much (wr 28%). But I play him when had only starter.
    I dont sure about Roose (wr 67%). But will try with him some games.

    Outrider Ko - very good attach. You sould use it very wisely to have full effect of it. It is not strighforward at all
    Screamer Ko - dont bad but worse that Outrider Ko. So if i want competitive roster i dont include him
    Unsuiled officer - very good in archers. Dont testing it with Swordsmans yet.

    I dont try other attaches/commanders yet (Belwas, Grey worm as attach).
    I dont think Mormont good in any version exept commander (at least now).

    NCU
    Best of NCU afcourse Illirio
    For my opinion NCU for 3 pts can do nothing (and even make some harm). Illirio have GREAT ability and i think he must have in any competitive army.
    Barristan is second best as he cah protect and prevent many effects
    Varis (and Frey) still good choices.
    Daenerys khaleese is solid NCU and she will be much more useful when dragons arrive
    I played Xaro once - he is good but other NCU much better
    "Black horse" is Pree. I dont make my opinion good he or not. He will be GREAT for 3 pts. But for 4 pts i dont sure about him.
    Iam use Petir Baylish with him to more heavy use Tower.
    But obivously he is better that seems at first glance.
    He give sixth tactic place what is very important fot Illirio. Also Targaryen have little gamebreaking cards comared with other houses and Tower will make more harm for them that for Targaryens.
    __________________________________________________ ____________
    Last edited by Valenae; 10-22-2020 at 09:38 AM.

  4. #4

    Default

    I used Stormcrow Archers with Unsullied Officer in my last battle with a unit of Blackguards protecting them with Barristan attached to the Blackguards. It was an amazing combo. With the Archers I was making 3 Attacks per round consistently, in one round I made 4 attacks. I put the Blackguards in the way of potential charges, so they would get charged able to hold the line easily with 3+ defense, then I shifted 2 with archers and shot into the melee combat with them. Each time I did, after damage was dealt the Blackguards had to make a morale save and when they did, Barristan handed out d3 damage to the unit he was engaged with. It was a devastating combination.

    Totally agree about Mormont. His cost is too high. I will take it for 1 pts, and it will be must have for 0. But 3 pts - is too many.
    Even at 0 points he is a liability. I can think of at least 4 different ways someone could kill him without ever attacking him. The fact that his ability is short range means that he is in charging range of most units an opportunity that can seriously backfire because whoever charges him will kill him and when they do they get a free maneuver putting them into advantageous positions. Frankly outside of an extra activation, why put a unit on the board that guarantees your opponent a free point.

    Lanisters - Cersei uses crown putting him to a morale test at 7+
    Walder Frey - Activation (He is dead round 2)
    Axell Florent - Activate him round 1 take the Bank, place a condition on Mormont, he will die that round.
    Melisandre - On the crown, sacrifice a unit or two, putting him a morale check between 7+ to 9+

    I have little doubt that this unit will be changed in an upcoming patch, I mean even in the podcast where the designer talks about the Targaryens, taking a deep dive into the faction and very thoroughly talking about every aspect of the many advantages the faction has, he doesn't even mention Jorah Mormont The Wandering Knight as if he didn't even come in the starter box. I would speculate this is so because very clearly something has gone terribly wrong with the design and release of this unit, it adds virtually no benefit to the Targaryen army at any point count. I don't think adjusting its value will fix it, something else must be done with it to make it worthwhile.

    As for the rest of the units, I mean, certainly we could debate it. I could argue for or against any of them, I mean for example the Veterans, say what you want about the cost (and I do) but the reality is that it it rolls the most amount of attack dice of any unit in the game, it is as mobile as the most mobile units in the game and the Targaryen deck of tactics cards are all built to support the veterans actions. Units simply don't get any deadlier then Veterans so while 10 points is hard to swallow, the Veterans are extremely good in the hands of a player that knows how to use cavalry properly. Screamers kind of fall into that same camp.

    For me, if they just fix Jorah, I mean not every unit in a faction has to be awesome and perfectly balanced, but Jorah is just terrible in every way.
    Last edited by Bigfish2020; 10-23-2020 at 06:29 AM.

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