Faith Abilities = Orders?
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Thread: Faith Abilities = Orders?

  1. #1

    Default Faith Abilities = Orders?

    How do Faith abilities compare to Orders in regards to targeting for things such as Selmy NCU, and Selmy, Roose & Rodrik tactic cards?

    They have a resource mechanic and can be used multiple times in a round, but the timing and how they work in regards to triggers is similar to how Order work. So they appear to satisfy the requirement of targeting. Does this mean the unit with the Faith ability is always a target of that ability when they are expending a token?
    Last edited by Groosalugg; 08-18-2021 at 02:33 PM.

  2. #2

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    Faith Abilities are not Orders, they do not have the Order Icon, are not subject to any of the rules for Orders (such as being limited to once per round).

    The unit utilizing the Faith token is their own target in most cases, though it depends on the exact wording of the Ability, as some might target Attackers/Defenders/Other units (which further may or may not be in addition to targeting themselves).
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  3. #3

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    Can you elaborate on which faith abilities target and why? I had thought that Battle Prayer, Fanatical Zeal and Zeal Resurgence never target anything since there's never any choice of which unit these abilities affect. Similarly, I thought Heart of Fire only ever targets a unit when its "When this unit is destroyed" ability is used.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by MechMage View Post
    Can you elaborate on which faith abilities target and why? I had thought that Battle Prayer, Fanatical Zeal and Zeal Resurgence never target anything since there's never any choice of which unit these abilities affect. Similarly, I thought Heart of Fire only ever targets a unit when its "When this unit is destroyed" ability is used.
    From my reading this would be correct. The only effect out of any of them that can target is Heart of Fire because its the only one that could possibly affect a unit that isn't the Faith Unit.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by MechMage View Post
    Can you elaborate on which faith abilities target and why? I had thought that Battle Prayer, Fanatical Zeal and Zeal Resurgence never target anything since there's never any choice of which unit these abilities affect. Similarly, I thought Heart of Fire only ever targets a unit when its "When this unit is destroyed" ability is used.
    As I stated, it entirely depends on the text of the ability in question. There is no universal answer. If the Ability does not state it directly targets a unit (whether it be the unit utilizing the ability, an enemy they are engaged with, some unrelated unit, etc etc) then the standard targeting rules apply. Orders always target the unit activating them by default, which as originally stated "Faith" Abilities are not, nor are they Tactics Cards, which utilize the trigger to designate a target. Heart of Fire is an example of a Faith Ability that has the potential to utilize a target, as one of its conditions "When the unit is destroyed" would have you designating a specific R'hllor unit within range to be affected.
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  6. #6

  7. #7

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    Just to clarify so I’m clear:

    based on Michael’s first answer he says that Faith tokens will usually target their own unit. So that would mean Battle Prayer, Zealous Resurgence and Fanatical Zeal target their own unit.

    Heart of Fire is slightly different as it may or may not target its unit. Ie the free attack on destruction targets the other unit doing the attack whereas the Precision and Vicious ability targets the Rhollor Faithful unit. What about the additional hits effect does that target the Faithful unit, the unit suffering the hits or both?

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Winter is coming; 09-06-2021 at 02:40 AM.

  8. #8

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    I don't think Battle Prayers, Zealous Resurgence or Fanatical Seal target their own unit. From his second answer "If the Ability does not state it directly targets a unit [these abilities don't] (whether it be the unit utilizing the ability, an enemy they are engaged with, some unrelated unit, etc etc) then the standard targeting rules apply." By the standard targeting rules, they don't make a selection so they don't target. Michael's first post that "The unit utilizing the Faith token is their own target in most cases" heavily implies that there is at least one and indeed multiple faith abilities that self target, but I can't identify even a single example based on his further elaboration.

  9. #9

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    That’s why I’m still confused. If Battle Zeal, etc don’t target then his first comment would appear to be incorrect, which is fine (he’s got a lot of rulings to get through!). Some further clarity would therefore be welcome IMO.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winter is coming View Post
    That’s why I’m still confused. If Battle Zeal, etc don’t target then his first comment would appear to be incorrect, which is fine (he’s got a lot of rulings to get through!). Some further clarity would therefore be welcome IMO.
    The first reply said that you have to check it case by case. It didn't provide a list or mention Battle Zeal at all.

  11. #11

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    If you had properly read what we were talking about, I never said Michael specifically referenced Battle Zeal. Michael said: “The unit utilizing the Faith token is their own target in most cases…”

    There are only three units which have Faith tokens. If Battle Zeal is not one of the ones he was referring to what Faith tokens do you think he was thinking of?! Saying judge it on a case by case basis is not helpful if we don’t even know which Faith tokens do target their own unit.

  12. #12

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    Keep the tone civil.

    As I originally stated, its going to depend on the specific Ability in question. There is no universal rule for "Faith Abilities" as each and every one is different in what it does. Examples: R'hllor Faithful, Heart of Fire, two of its three effects do not generate a target, per the targeting rules, but the final one would. Battle Zeal on the Warrior's Sons, either of its effects, is not generating any targets by the rulebook defintions.
    CMON Design and Development Manager
    Designer: A Song of Ice and Fire, Dark Age, Rum & Bones, World of SMOG: Rise of Moloch, Wrath of Kings, Xenoshyft, Bloodborne, Masters of the Universe: Clash for Eternia

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