Units in Reserve
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Thread: Units in Reserve

  1. #1

    Default Units in Reserve

    1) Do units in reserve still need to activate? And if so, what happens?

    Rulebook page 6 does not specify only deployed units must activate, it states all units must activate.

    If they do need to activate, do they simply pass the turn immediately?

    2) Units in Reserve may not be targeted by any effect or ability per FAQ correct? Isn't this contradictory to Outflank? Outflank in itself is an effect (zone effect), that targets a unit in reserve?

  2. #2

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    Much as I'm not crazy about the idea of activating units held in reserve there's actually a pretty strong indication that you do. The Storm of Swords scenario in the core rulebook reads under the defender's special rules:

    - The Defender does not begin with all Combat Units in play. They must select half of their total Combat Units (rounded up) to begin in Reserve. The rest are deployed as normal.
    - Beginning on Round 3, the Defender may deploy any unit from Reserve fully within Short Range of any Flank table edge. This is done at the start of the unit's activation and is not their action for the turn.

    There seems to be no allowance for deploying these units other than by choosing to activate them while they are not on the table. But activating them in this way is also not outlined in a way that makes it seem to be an unusual exception.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spleen View Post
    Much as I'm not crazy about the idea of activating units held in reserve there's actually a pretty strong indication that you do. The Storm of Swords scenario in the core rulebook reads under the defender's special rules:

    - The Defender does not begin with all Combat Units in play. They must select half of their total Combat Units (rounded up) to begin in Reserve. The rest are deployed as normal.
    - Beginning on Round 3, the Defender may deploy any unit from Reserve fully within Short Range of any Flank table edge. This is done at the start of the unit's activation and is not their action for the turn.

    There seems to be no allowance for deploying these units other than by choosing to activate them while they are not on the table. But activating them in this way is also not outlined in a way that makes it seem to be an unusual exception.
    Spleen brings up a good point in the wording from Storm of Swords, but I also wouldn't use that scenario (or any scenario) as a bases for general rules.

    This does seem to be an "open area" in the rules, but also looking at it from one point: If Outflank couldn't affect its own unit, then the Ability could literally never be used. Since that cannot be the case your left with the only other alternative (that, you know, the Ability does what it says and not "nothing").

    The other argument would be that Outflank affects the unit at the start of the game, creates an "ongoing" type of effect that never really targets the unit. It also lacks the word target as well, and also doesn't give a choice in who it affects (which is one of the targeting definitions).

    So, frankly, this one breaks down to common sense for me: You're either playing it that the Outflank Ability can literally never do anything... or that it can be used and brings the unit into play. I mean those are your only options (and if you're further trying to extrapolate that to affect other rules, that's not the point of the comment there).

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    Spleen brings up a good point in the wording from Storm of Swords, but I also wouldn't use that scenario (or any scenario) as a bases for general rules.

    This does seem to be an "open area" in the rules, but also looking at it from one point: If Outflank couldn't affect its own unit, then the Ability could literally never be used. Since that cannot be the case your left with the only other alternative (that, you know, the Ability does what it says and not "nothing").

    The other argument would be that Outflank affects the unit at the start of the game, creates an "ongoing" type of effect that never really targets the unit. It also lacks the word target as well, and also doesn't give a choice in who it affects (which is one of the targeting definitions).

    So, frankly, this one breaks down to common sense for me: You're either playing it that the Outflank Ability can literally never do anything... or that it can be used and brings the unit into play. I mean those are your only options (and if you're further trying to extrapolate that to affect other rules, that's not the point of the comment there).
    I'm a bit confused, there's no question as to the effect of outflank, it definitely does something, that thing is lets you hold the unit off the board and if you meet certain criteria lets you replace a tactics zone.

    Nobody is suggesting outflank would never do anything as far as I can tell.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alliser Thorne View Post
    Spleen brings up a good point in the wording from Storm of Swords, but I also wouldn't use that scenario (or any scenario) as a bases for general rules.

    The other argument would be that Outflank affects the unit at the start of the game, creates an "ongoing" type of effect that never really targets the unit. It also lacks the word target as well, and also doesn't give a choice in who it affects (which is one of the targeting definitions).
    This could spawn a side thread of can I use Barristan NCU to stop outflank.

    Or for that matter can I influence a unit not deployed with any NCU?
    Last edited by The Dark Angel 88; 09-02-2021 at 02:31 AM.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark Angel 88 View Post
    This could spawn a side thread of can I use Barristan NCU to stop outflank.

    Or for that matter can I influence a unit not deployed with any NCU?
    Since the basic rules specifically say units in reserve cannot by targeted or affected by any ability, clearly no, you cannot influence a unit outside of the board.

    Since Outflank rules specifically allow you to target unit in reserve, then as in any other game: specific rules overwrite general rules - outflank is literally the only thing that can affect units in reserve.

  7. #7

    Default

    The rulebook reads
    "Q: Can I target units that are not on the battlefield (such as Combat Units in Reserve) with Abilities/effects?A: No."
    The Outflank ability reads
    "OUTFLANK
    (...)When a friendly NCU claims horse zone, you may replace that zone's effect with:
    Deploy 1 unit from Reserve fully within Short Range of any Flank table edge
    "
    Since choosing a unit to activate is an effect, you can not activate it.
    The Outflank ability describes a special rule and thus applies over core rule book. Furthermore, can you say the unit is targeted ? She's affected but targeted ?

  8. #8

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    let's focus on number 1 friends lol.

    number 2 was more of something that was noticed that might want to be adjusted/tweaked. thanks for all the feedback, but yes of course it is played that Outflank works, it is just a weird direct contradiction to the FAQ regarding reserve units. and yes, the zone that gets Outflank does target, since it needs you to choose a unit in Reserve (you can have multiple).

  9. #9

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    Since choosing a unit to activate is an effect, you can not activate it.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by titfilou View Post
    Since choosing a unit to activate is an effect, you can not activate it.
    How is choosing a unit to activate an effect? Choosing a unit to activate is a step of the game, included in every single turn of the game.

  11. #11

    Default

    effect : consequence of an action. you select your unit which activates

  12. #12

    Default

    This thread is getting convoluted with numerous questions that should be in their own thread. In the future please refrain from tagging additional questions into threads asking other, separate questions.

    To answer the original question, units in Reserve do not Activate, and cannot be interacted with in any fashion until they are on the battlefield. This is a point that had previously been expressed in the FAQ, will further add it in the next pass: Unless something is specifically and directly interacting with Reserves, it cannot interact with them (eg, you cannot place Condition tokens on units in Reserve, you cannot Wound them, etc etc.) The only effects that interact with them specifically state such, and in all these cases, are means of deploying them onto the battlefield (Game Mode, Outflank, etc).
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