Recent GW Finecast bans

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Hello, fellow painters!

If you are using Facebook you probably stumbled upon the recent bans of GW Finecast models from comission painters.

Yeah, I know I don't want to start this whole discussion all over again (well, in a way I guess I do), but many people were of the opinion that GW got their act together and fixed the problems with their 'latest step in hobby evolution, providing [us] with incredibly detailed, high-quality resin kits'.

Commission painters like Arsies, atacam, ctan and many more have put up statements about not accepting Finecast models for comissioning anymore. The 'atrocious miscasts and bubbles' (atacam) means the comission painters need 'one extra day just to clean and repair the miniature' (Arsies).

I personally bought just a hand-full of Finecast miniatures (mostly limited stuff, keeping my fingers crossed they are ok) but on the standard models I bought from the store I had to return all of them. With one exception, I did find decent (by no means perfect) casts - in one case (after opening 6 packages in the store), I got a cash refund, because NONE of the minis in store were of good quality (this was 4 weeks ago on a new release).

I would be interested to hear what your latest experiences are - especially on new releases.
I will still buy Finecast stuff if it interests me as I know I can return it 1000 times if need be. From a business perspective this makes me cringe and cry for GW profits.

What's your take on all of that?

Zappi

 

[VeristicalBlaze]

I just don't understand they keep using it. If you take for example the plastic Nurgle champion or the Savage Orc, they are a lot better in terms of quality and I think that now, after two years we can easily conclude that the plastics even sell more.

 

[me_in_japan]

I'm speculating here, but it would seem from their behaviour over the past few years that GW are less and less interested in the painting crowd, and are increasingly directing their attention to the hobby newbs. Long term customer retention doesn't appear to be part of their business plan. I haven't seen their financial details, but as long as the numbers keep coming up black I can't imagine they'd change the current attitude. New hobbyist don't have the expectations experienced painters do. If a model has holes, they can assume (and will be told by staff) that holes are normal and part of the standard model-prep procedure. Remember, in the world of GW stores there are no other model manufacturers, so there is no point of comparison.

I think nowadays the plastics are better suited to display level painters, and the finecast minis are really only suitable for tabletop painting. This, I think, is GW's plan. Maybe...

 

[In Chigh P.I.]

That's a good point made by m_i_j above, plus the more holes in the failcast minis, the more (interestingly brought out just after finecast) liquid greenstuff they can sell.

 

[boubi]

Knowing the investment to go to plastic models, I believe that they are kind of stuck. The metal moulds can be reused with their "finecast" resin, zero investments, but for plastic different story.
Then just a feeling, going quite often to a GW shop, I have the impression that they turn more and more models into plastic kits.
Margin are huge for high runner models because the material is cheap and the injection time is really short, problem is the tooling (investment) itself which is more expensive. So I believe the trend will be to use plastic models more and more, even for low runners models. Then maybe for the few remaining "high end" models with even higher price, they will use Forge World resin which is much much better. Just my 2 cents...

 

[Broke n English]

I last bought 'Vilitch the Curseling' and it was effing dire, not as bad as previous purchases, but it will be the last purchase of finecast I make. I agree with whoever said they take too much prep time, and if they can't be arsed putting out a decent product I can't be arsed painting em'

 

[nels0nmac]

Last Failcast that I bought was the LTD ED GD Captain from 2012. Looking at it in the packet it didn't look too bad, but once open and under proper inspection it still had quite a number of bubbles and flaws. I can certainly agree with commission painters not wanting to take failcast figures, they are generally a lot of work to get them up to a proper pre-paint standard. Personally once I've collected all the metal figures that I want ( Ebay is a wonderful thing) then I will move onto GW plastics, which I personally think are superb, and other resin manufacturers - some of Scibors stuff has caught my eye.

Unless I see that GW have finally and truly mastered Finecast to produce figures to the same quality of molding as their old metal models i.e. the odd mold line but no bubbles, then I won't be buying any.

 

[crystella333]

In light of all this fuss about finecast, I see an opportunity for someone out there to prep these models instead of the commission painter's doing it. Its what is done in the model horse hobby in the USA and very few do it over here and are always in need so maybe someone could do the same with finecast models.
I know finecast isn't the best resin out there but really, can't understand the problem with spending a whole day prepping a model before starting the paintwork on it.

 

[Dragonsreach]

....but really, can't understand the problem with spending a whole day prepping a model before starting the paintwork on it.

When painting to commission is your sole source of income a day not painting is wasted time.
In any cash/time equasion losing time preparing something which is badly faulted/flawed having to spend X number of hours fixing the issues then waiting until preperation materials are cured is just lost. You can't get that time back!
Its the same with IT projects I deal with, if we order a physical server; then find a fault part way through the sytem build and have to wait on a replacement part our deadline gets closer with out progress.

I totally agree with the stance these Commission Painters are taking and I commend them for it. But being honest I don't see the point of this thread naming those people, it strikes me too much as "finger pointing" and school yard gossip.

 

[10 ball]

NIA, why did it have to be the NIA?

 

[Dragonsreach]

NIA, why did it have to be the NIA?

Because (according to rumour) GW screwed up and didn't book the NEC.
More likely they're cutting costs after all there are suggestions that Gamesday is actually costing GW and not making money.
[Oh and I think you posted this in the worng thread Lee]

 

[jahminis]

i've said no Finecast since day 1...
miscasts aside even, the softness of the material and the strange droops and bends make me stay away...
as a painter charging top dollar, there is no way i am going to paint a mini that droops or bends of it's own accord...

i spend a lot of time prepping a mini already, so i don't need a mini looking like Swiss Cheese adding more time to the prep...
seeing all the guys who have heated parts, straightened them, and then had the bend come right back is my biggest issue...

it really sucks to have boycotted Finecast, since some of the sculpts are amazing...
i want the character models that have come out in the last two years, but if it's not plastic or metal GW doesn't get my money...

i've quit taking commissions, but all my minis will still be for sale, so now the issue is even bigger...
obviously, new releases sell well, but almost every cool new sculpt is coming out in Finecast, really limiting my market...
luckily i have 25 years worth of cool metal minis just waiting for paint...

unfortunately, as long as Finecast sells there is no reason for GW to change...

cheers
jah

 

[puppyfresh]

haha this reminds me of the 'how to win a golden daemon' video on youtube.

"you need to leave the mold lines on the model as it will give your model 'extra detail'"

 

[Kelly Kim]

I can understand a commission painter refusing to work on Finecast minis, seeing as there's a fair bit of extra time involved in just FINDING a decent cast. Extra prep work is involved as well... but will a client be willing to pay for an extra hour, two, or even three?

I don't paint for hire any more (thankfully), but I did back when Forgeworld was just starting out. I can't say that it was much better back then... we had to send parts back to FW often, and just about every model needed a fair bit of extra prep time over metal or plastic models. That being said, we had some great clients, who understood that the medium would cost them a bit more for a finished project. As we were a full time studio, we couldn't afford to turn business away, but I've had a few bad finecast figs recently (but just as many gorgeous ones), and I can understand why a professional painter might not want to work on Finecast.

As for the theory that GW is not caring whether or not their latest project is crap, I don't know if I would go that far. I think it's more likely that they thought this stuff was potentially much better than their past medium (metal), and didn't anticipate there being so many problems. I still think they should clamp down on their QC, and have the packs visually inspected before shipping though.

 

[David Stanton]

I don't commission, but I know a few people who do and they do work with finecast. However the complaints outweigh the praise in that realm for many reasons that have already been stated here. I've had my own issues with finecast, got a vargulf with a huge bubble through the fur, and I've just stuck to not buying them when I can. My stance on it, and this is my personal opinion, is that GW has really shot themselves in the foot with finecast.

If you look at the amount of dissapointment with finecast, especially in the first year they produced it, it should have been a clear sign to switch to a different material or casting process. They could have gone right next door to forge world and asked to use their resin mixture and they probably would have been better off, but that didn't happen and we got this abomination. Honestly, with the amount of detail in the newer plastic characters, I'm beginning to question why finecast exists in the first place. The plastic is easier to use, far stronger, and without the maddening defects.

I have contemplated doing my own commissions, and I think I would stick with the concensus of no finecast simply for the prep/fix issue if I do opt to paint for cash. The flash on the models alone is hard enough to clean without doing some serious damage to the model itself, and I would hate to tell a customer that I'd need more time because I have to buy / request a replacement and start all over. It just seems like too much of a headache to deal with unless you're painting for yourself.

 

[RuneBrush]

To be honest, I've actually steered away from finecast mini's since they've come out. I love the detail you can get in resin, but this material has always seemed a poor replacement for metal.

Knowing the investment to go to plastic models, I believe that they are kind of stuck. The metal moulds can be reused with their "finecast" resin, zero investments, but for plastic different story.

Actually the molds can't be reused. GW's molds were RTV rubber, designed to be used in a gravity system (i.e. spun at high speed to force the metal to the edges). Resin's require a softer material to allow undercuts and can't be gravity spun in the same manner.

If rumour is to be believed (and I do take it with a pinch of salt), somebody in GW convinced everyone else that they *could* reuse the same technology which is why the first load of models were particularly bad.

 

[boubi]

To be honest, I've actually steered away from finecast mini's since they've come out. I love the detail you can get in resin, but this material has always seemed a poor replacement for metal.

Actually the molds can't be reused. GW's molds were RTV rubber, designed to be used in a gravity system (i.e. spun at high speed to force the metal to the edges). Resin's require a softer material to allow undercuts and can't be gravity spun in the same manner.

If rumour is to be believed (and I do take it with a pinch of salt), somebody in GW convinced everyone else that they *could* reuse the same technology which is why the first load of models were particularly bad.

It is not what I understood from their staff, but I am definitely not a specialist... But for some model I got recently (Ogre Subertusk) it is still with old dates (2002, 2003, etc...) so it was making sense in a way. Then I believe that even if the molds could not be reused there are far cheaper than plastic injection tooling.

 

[Arsies]

Please allow me (by references) to clarify my position.

First of all please let me copy the complete anouncement I did on my facebook page, not just a line:

"
I'm not accepting finecast works because this material is very difficult to work on. My prices are the same for almost all 30mm mianitures, but in finecast I need one extra day just to clean and repair the mianiture, it's harder to work on and painting job doesn't reach same quality level as plastic or white metal (I don't know why) so as i don't want to charge an extra 25% for finecast miniatures to give customers a lower quality work I just don't accept them.
"

So for me, trouble is not the extra working day, the problem is that painting work on finecast is slower and doesn't reach same quality level as plastic, metal or other resins, I don't know why, but at top levels I can notice a difference doing the same.
I'm not ready to ask customer more money to cover the extra time just to give him (or her) a lower quality miniature. I'm always working to give people who trust me their minis the better quality as possibe, and I know those models doesn't reach that level, doesn't care if other people can or can't notice the difference, for me it's not enought.
I'm not going to ask less money for a longer work and i'm not going to ask more money for a worst work, so I think best option for me is not to accept this kind of material.

hope this could clarify a little my own pojnt of view.

regards

 

[Willdorling]

Thanks to all the commission painters coming on here to clarify their point of view. I commend you all for taking pride in your work. For me, if I wanted a commission PJ I would want the best quality work. If you are not able to deliver that on a Finecast mini then say up front and I as a customer can decide what to do. If I still want a specific mini painting and its only available in Finecast I then make an alternate decision. Personally I think I would choose my artist first and then work out the mini preferring to buy an artists 'style' rather than mini specific paint job.

Very interesting debate. I fully support anyone opting out of painting Finecast as I now do this myself!

Cheers
Will

 

[RuneBrush]

It is not what I understood from their staff, but I am definitely not a specialist... But for some model I got recently (Ogre Subertusk) it is still with old dates (2002, 2003, etc...) so it was making sense in a way. Then I believe that even if the molds could not be reused there are far cheaper than plastic injection tooling.

Ah that makes sense wouldn't surprise me to find they've found a way of reusing the old molds for a time (all rubber based molds only have a limited life expectancy). I read that some of the finecast molds were made using the 'master' created for the metal version. It was always banded about that a plastic mold costs in the region of £10k to make but the actual production cost was pence, a rubber mold costs less but the material more.

I think we both agree finecast is a bit kak though