Flayed Man Has No Secrets and targeting

[Winter is coming]

1. I have some questions about how Flayed Man Has No Secrets interacts with various effects/abilities and when they need to be played.

1. Qhorin: the rules seem to say that you kill Qhorin and then only after this is done target a unit. So that would mean I could prevent Qhorin’s ability but he remains destroyed. Is that correct?

2. Tycho: does Tycho need to declare all of his targets and where the wounds will be restored before playing Flayed Man Has No Secrets or can they say where one wound will be restored, wait to see if Flayed Man Has No Secrets before declaring where the other wounds will be restored?

3. Tywin: Again does Tywin need to declare all targets before Flayed Man Has No Secrets. If so, does Flayed Man Has No Secrets cancel all effects targeting that unit or is it limited to one.

4. Supply Aid: are the wounds removed and then another unit targeted or does this happen simultaneously?

5. Expert Duelist: can FMHNS stop both the wound and the remove an attachment, just stop the remove the attachment, or can’t stop Expert Duelist at all?

Many thanks.

 

[CMON Michael Shinall]

1. Correct.
2. No, you do not get to piece-mail "choose targets, wait, choose more". You must resolve all of the effect, including declaring any and all targets.
3. As 2.
4. Per text, Wounds are removed, then a unit is selected.
5. Expert Duelist does not target a Unit (the secondary effect specifically targets an Attachment).

 

[De_Cypher]

Digging-up the topic for more precisions, particulary in regards to 2. and 3.

According to 1., Selyse and Shireen also get destroyed for nothing, right ?

Following 2. and 3., is the whole Tycho/Tywin/Cortnay's ability cancelled or just the part targetting the unit you want to use FMHNS on ?
Example : My opponent use Tywin ability. He declares how he is going to use it, inflicting panic token + panic test to unit A, vulnerable token + 4 autohits to unit B and unit C loose it's abilities. The I use FMHNS on unit B. What happens ?
- I cancel either the autohits or the vulnerable
- I cancel both
- I cancel everything from Tywin abilities

Once a NCU use order token / unique ability before getting cancelled by FMHNS, do we agree that the token / unique ability is spent ?


Thanks for your hard work

 

[Alliser Thorne]

Those are all a single Ability. You don't cancel "part of an Ability" you cancel all of it, period.

 

[CMON Michael Shinall]

Those are all a single Ability. You don't cancel "part of an Ability" you cancel all of it, period.

This is correct for the reason stated. There is never an instance of only "part" of something being cancelled.

 

[Dean Rothwell]

This is correct for the reason stated. There is never an instance of only "part" of something being cancelled.

So to clarify Question 4 above regarding Supply Aid; if the Night's Watch player removes 3 wounds from the Conscripts and then targets another unit and the opponent then plays AFMHNS or uses Barristan Selmy's NCU ability, the ability would not only be cancelled but the wounds would be restored to the Conscripts?

Also, this answer seems to contradict the answer regarding Qhorin above too (Question 1). According to your answer you kill Qhorin and then target a unit. If that ability is then cancelled Qhorin remains destroyed. This is literally an instance of part of the ability being cancelled.

 

[Spleen]

The difference is one of timing. Both Tywin and Cortnay explicitly tell you that before you start resolving any effects you "target any number of [enemy/friendly] units", this means before you start applying any wounds restored or any negative effects you must have targeted. You should understand Michael's answer as confirming that despite lacking the same wording Tycho functions the same way, target the units, then apply the wounds to them all at once.

You undo the entire rule at once, but you don't rewind time to change events that have already happened, just like if you removed sundering from a unit you wouldn't suddenly return to life models that only died due to sundering. if a rule happens in distinctly staggered steps the entire rule can be cancelled after steps have already happened and they will still have happened, that is not inconsistent with him saying you always cancel the entire rule when using A Flayed Man Has No Secrets and other similar cards.

 

[Alliser Thorne]

Can we get clarification on this, specifically with when an effect does something, _then_ targets something, and is then cancelled?

The example being Supply Aid and A Flayed Man Has No Secrets. I remove models, _then_ I target a unit, _then) Flayed Man is played. What happens? Since you said the entire effect is cancelled does that not include the removed models?

 

[Nachtalb]

This is correct for the reason stated. There is never an instance of only "part" of something being cancelled.

Clarification is needed on what happens with already declared "once per game" abilities, when they get canceled. Especialy NCU Abilities like Qhorin's "Sacrifice for the Cause" or Tywin's "The Rains of Castamere" or Tycho's "Backing of the Iron Bank". I f theese Abilities gets canceled, does the "once per game" activation get's also canceled? So can you use such an ability again next turn, if it was canceled by things like A Flayed Man Has No Secrets, or have they still been used? Is Qhorin, who dies at declaration, revived, if he gets canceled at targeting/resolving, meaning the game state would be "rewinded" by such a cancelation?